You gotta be kidding me. Electricians won't add a Tesla wall connector on the backup side of ESS

[holeydonut]

I just need to vent at this point... PV+ESS = sucks. Real hard.

So I got a whole house backup from Sunrun. But I'm doubly-stupid because I did this before I actually bought an EV and got an EV charger installed.

Now that Sunrun has done their whole house backup, the electricians I've asked to install a Tesla charger won't do it. Because from their perspective the "whole house" is now under Sunrun's liability. Adding a Tesla charger would have to go into Sunrun's equipment and therefore wouldn't be allowed. These are two independently owned/operated electrician services in East Bay telling me this.

This panel is "full" because it's part of Sunrun's backup.

I own the solar and ESS (no lease or lein on the system)
I own this house (technically there's a mortgage but that's debt)

But somehow Sunrun's stupid 200A panel is sacred and can't be touched? HOW THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUU

PS. Sunrun can't install Tesla chargers because that's not in their wheelhouse. FFFFFFFF
PSS. If I knew Biden was going to be elected thus extending the ITC, I would have bought a Tesla before putting in PV+ESS.

 

[h2ofun]

I just need to vent at this point... PV+ESS = sucks. Real hard.

So I got a whole house backup from Sunrun. But I'm doubly-stupid because I did this before I actually bought an EV and got an EV charger installed.

Now that Sunrun has done their whole house backup, the electricians I've asked to install a Tesla charger won't do it. Because from their perspective the "whole house" is now under Sunrun's liability. Adding a Tesla charger would have to go into Sunrun's equipment and therefore wouldn't be allowed. These are two independently owned/operated electrician services in East Bay telling me this.

This panel is "full" because it's part of Sunrun's backup.
View attachment 636981

I own the solar and ESS (no lease or lein on the system)
I own this house (technically there's a mortgage but that's debt)

But somehow Sunrun's stupid 200A panel is sacred and can't be touched? HOW THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUU

PS. Sunrun can't install Tesla chargers because that's not in their wheelhouse. FFFFFFFF
PSS. If I knew Biden was going to be elected thus extending the ITC, I would have bought a Tesla before putting in PV+ESS.

Assuming that is the generation panel I can see this. Now, how about in your "owned" subpanel? Or have another subpanel put in thats "yours"

 

[Electrph]

i put a like cause i feel you... i have no good advice ... this happens frequently at my employment .. stuck between two departments blaming / pushing responsibility to each other ... .. pi**es me off beyond belief .. so i can imagine if affected my home i would be livid

 

[jjrandorin]

I just need to vent at this point... PV+ESS = sucks. Real hard.

So I got a whole house backup from Sunrun. But I'm doubly-stupid because I did this before I actually bought an EV and got an EV charger installed.

Now that Sunrun has done their whole house backup, the electricians I've asked to install a Tesla charger won't do it. Because from their perspective the "whole house" is now under Sunrun's liability. Adding a Tesla charger would have to go into Sunrun's equipment and therefore wouldn't be allowed. These are two independently owned/operated electrician services in East Bay telling me this.

This panel is "full" because it's part of Sunrun's backup.
View attachment 636981

I own the solar and ESS (no lease or lein on the system)
I own this house (technically there's a mortgage but that's debt)

But somehow Sunrun's stupid 200A panel is sacred and can't be touched? HOW THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUU

PS. Sunrun can't install Tesla chargers because that's not in their wheelhouse. FFFFFFFF
PSS. If I knew Biden was going to be elected thus extending the ITC, I would have bought a Tesla before putting in PV+ESS.

FWIW, my electrical sub panel that has my entire home minus my EV on it has red stickers on it that say "DO NOT ADD LOADS TO THIS PANEL", so no loads at all may be added to that panel. Keep in mind that this sub panel is basically "whole home backup" including my 2 AC units, etc.

So, this is not unusual, imo. Once you add storage they dont let you add loads to the backup side without "something" but I dont know what that "something" is.

 

[Ampster]

I don't see anything on that panel that would suggest why you could not install another 50 Amp breaker. The main breaker is 200 Amps and there are subpanels with 70 and 90 Amp breakers. You own that panel and I do not understand why another breaker would "go into Sunrun's equipment"? Is there another panel between that panel and your meter? Do you have a single line diagram from the permit that would explain more detail about what is there and connected?
I understand and agree with what @jjrandorin is saying but I did not see those warnings on this panel.
There has to be an electrician with the skills to be able to add a circuit that does not interfere with Sunrun's equipment.

 

[holeydonut]

Assuming that is the generation panel I can see this. Now, how about in your "owned" subpanel? Or have another subpanel put in thats "yours"

No, that's my "backup loads" panel.

I used to have a 200A main panel (MLO style) that had these 90A and 70A breakers. Sunrun moved the 90A and 70A into this new 200 A panel that is on the backup side of the Gateway 2. We're using the Gateway 2's internal panelboard as a generation panel.

From here the 90A goes into a completely full interior loads sub panel that was there the day my home was built.

And the 70A goes to a air conditioning sub panel (that was also original to the house). The electricians say this AC sub panel is maxed out too.

I feel like this 200 A sub panel in the picture is "mine" as well since it's all connected to the same thing (the Gateway 2 on the backup side).

 

[holeydonut]

FWIW, my electrical sub panel that has my entire home minus my EV on it has red stickers on it that say "DO NOT ADD LOADS TO THIS PANEL", so no loads at all may be added to that panel. Keep in mind that this sub panel is basically "whole home backup" including my 2 AC units, etc.

So, this is not unusual, imo. Once you add storage they dont let you add loads to the backup side without "something" but I dont know what that "something" is.

Luckily, I don't have the stickers. Unluckily the electricians don't care.

I can see where the electrician is coming from if I were installing some rinky dink no-name charger. Because in the event of a power outage, the house + ACs + EV charger could be pulling over 60A and put the Powerwalls into "oopsie" mode.

But since Sunrun has already okayed the house + AC's for the 3x Powerwalls. I feel like adding a Tesla charger (with a Tesla) that is smart enough to automatically load-shed during an outage should be sufficient.

If the grid were operational, I can't imagine there being a problem adding a 50 A load into this 200 A panel that has so many juicy open spots. But the electricians are like "nahhhh can't touch.

 

[holeydonut]

I don't see anything on that panel that would suggest why you could not install another 50 Amp breaker. The main breaker is 200 Amps and there are subpanels with 70 and 90 Amp breakers. You own that panel and I do not understand why another breaker would "go into Sunrun's equipment"? Is there another panel between that panel and your meter? Do you have a single line diagram from the permit that would explain more detail about what is there and connected?
I understand and agree with what @jjrandorin is saying but I did not see those warnings on this panel.
There has to be an electrician with the skills to be able to add a circuit that does not interfere with Sunrun's equipment.

The electricians consider everything downstream of the Gateway 2 to be "Sunrun's Equipment" which includes my original interior and exterior load panels. This is because "Sunrun" controls the liability for everything on the Backup side (which is my whole goddamn house).

To your point, there is a spot on my main service panel that could be used.

One electrician says he can't put the EV charger there since the Gateway 2 and home loads are already protected for 200 A. If they put a load outside of the Gateway it would exceed the rating of my main service panel.

The other electrician said he couldn't help me put a CT upstream of the Gateway, which means my EV charger would be invisible to the TEG2 and could never benefit from any energy from the ESS.

Sunrun won't send someone out to my house to add an upstream CT since they aren't in the business of doing that. Sunrun also won't add a 50 A Gen 3 wall charger anywhere on my house (inside or outside the Gatway) since they're not in the business of doing that.

 

[Ampster]

No, that's my "backup loads" panel.

Okay, that makes sense, but then it is fed from your main service panel, correct? Instead of a "noname charger" how about what one electrician suggested adding circuit to your main service panel? Could they derate the 200 Amp backup panel by feedingvit with a smaller breaker at the main panel? I have heard that there is a difference between the cost and complexity of adding even a 50 Amp circuit with14-50 receptacle and the cost of adding a Tesla charger.

 

[Electrph]

i have the stickers as well .. i always assumed the stickers were intended to actually convey "these are on a back up system .. not run of mill panel.. know what your doing before you add loads" .. once a competent electrician looked at set up seems they could safely add your connector
the statement of "its sunruns" would annoy me .. if you are not leasing it its yours .
i may not have skill to replace my roof but its my roof .. same i do not have skill to install / repair powerwalls / pv but they are mine
i am not an electrician so maybe there are liability issues involved ?

 

[arnolddeleon]

FWIW, my electrical sub panel that has my entire home minus my EV on it has red stickers on it that say "DO NOT ADD LOADS TO THIS PANEL", so no loads at all may be added to that panel. Keep in mind that this sub panel is basically "whole home backup" including my 2 AC units, etc.

So, this is not unusual, imo. Once you add storage they dont let you add loads to the backup side without "something" but I dont know what that "something" is.

My load panel has a similar sticker. I have whole house backup. The load panel has the following 240V loads, 90A sub panel (old critical load panel contain most of the house small loads), 30A heat pump, 30A dryer outlet (currently unused), 40A oven circuit, two 40A EVSE circuits, a 50A 14-50 (also an EVSE), a 20A L6-20 (emergency EV charging), 15A pool pump. Plus of course a few more 120V loads. We only have two EVs so the we would practically never use more than 2 of the possible charging locations. Additional locations got added as we switch from front charging cars to rear (Tesla) ones.

If I recall correctly, the biggest concern was the heat pump, making sure the starting current was within the capabilities of the system.

I wouldn't hesitate to add a circuit if I/the electrician understood what they were doing.

 

[Akikiki]

Move, start over. Isn't that what Elon did when he could not have his way in CA?

I know. I'm just being silly. I do sympathize with you.

 

[Vines]

What a clusterf&*% there is no reason to not add the HPWC, except they don't want to.

This panel has loads only, there is no worry about 100% or 120% rules as the panel has 1 source of power, the main breaker connected to the Gateway.

No reason at all I can imagine any of the following solutions not working:
1. Add the 60A HPWC to that panel you showed. (backup and metered)
2. Add the HPWC to the non backup lug of the GW, with a 60A QO200TR disconnect. (nonbackup and metered)
3. Land a 50A on the main service bus and derate the GW breaker to 175A. (non backup non metered without additional CT)

 

[holeydonut]

What a clusterf&*% there is no reason to not add the HPWC, except they don't want to.

This panel has loads only, there is no worry about 100% or 120% rules as the panel has 1 source of power, the main breaker connected to the Gateway.

No reason at all I can imagine any of the following solutions not working:
1. Add the 60A HPWC to that panel you showed. (backup and metered)
2. Add the HPWC to the non backup lug of the GW, with a 60A QO200TR disconnect. (nonbackup and metered)
3. Land a 50A on the main service bus and derate the GW breaker to 175A. (non backup non metered without additional CT)

Yeah I'll need to find someone who is willing to do any of these (I think I know another guy.......)

These East Bay electricians won't touch the Gateway 2 so they can't add anything to the non-backup lug and they can't touch the Eaton 200A on the GW2. And they won't touch that pictured sub-panel since it's too precious.

So frustrating...

 

[Vines]

Yeah I'll need to find someone who is willing to do any of these (I think I know another guy.......)

These East Bay electricians won't touch the Gateway 2 so they can't add anything to the non-backup lug and they can't touch the Eaton 200A on the GW2. And they won't touch that pictured sub-panel since it's too precious.

So frustrating...

Tesla recommends leaving the HPWC on the backup side, so I'd just land it next to your AC and subpanel breakers. Sunrun would have installed it for you if that's what it took to close the deal I am sure...

 

[holeydonut]

i have the stickers as well .. i always assumed the stickers were intended to actually convey "these are on a back up system .. not run of mill panel.. know what your doing before you add loads" .. once a competent electrician looked at set up seems they could safely add your connector
the statement of "its sunruns" would annoy me .. if you are not leasing it its yours .
i may not have skill to replace my roof but its my roof .. same i do not have skill to install / repair powerwalls / pv but they are mine
i am not an electrician so maybe there are liability issues involved ?

Yeah, the electricians are worried if they overload the backup loads panel, then the Powerwalls will be damaged when they try to run my house, air conditioners, and EV charger at the same time. They said Sunrun's engineers did a load calc and determined the 3 Powerwalls could only backup the "whole home" which is 90A home loads + 70A air conditioners.

No more loads can be added to my "whole home backup" per their the electrician's own policy. One electrician said the whole home backup basically set a hard-cap since the main panel and Gateway are now rated the same. There's nowhere to add more load. The other engineer was willing to add something on the MSP, but knew it would be invisible to the Gateway which is a sub-optimal setup since I couldn't charge the EV with any stored energy even if the utility were operational.

 

[SMAlset]

Sorry to hear of your situation. Brings into question for any homeowner what can and can’t be done after install. So if you would have gone with Tesla Energy would you be in the same situation since they have electricians they work with who do install chargers? Is Sunrun saying they don’t install chargers at all? Doesn’t have to be a Tesla charger (although nice to have the integration I suppose) in order to charge an EV. As mentioned even adding a 14-50 would do the job nicely for at home charging. I just find it hard to believe Sunrun says it’s impossible to some how do this work. What about people who later remodel their home and electrical gets changed? What happens then? I would think it could be remedied somehow but if so sounding expensive maybe. Too bad you didn’t have at least a 14-50 outlet added during their planning/install stage. Will be watching your thread to see how this plays out.

Since you mentioned an unused 30A unused drier outlet is that your only option maybe for later charging?

 

[Notadog]

Is this only a concern because it's Sunrun?

I'm planning a whole home backup and Tesla Solar has approved it. However, I don't have an A/C or Tesla vehicle right now but I do plan on purchasing both next year. Would there be any issues adding both the A/C and Tesla to the backed up loads next year?

 

[holeydonut]

Sorry to hear of your situation. Brings into question for any homeowner what can and can’t be done after install. So if you would have gone with Tesla Energy would you be in the same situation since they have electrians tgey work with who do install chargers? Is Sunrun saying they don’t install chargers at all? Doesn’t have to be a Tesla charger (although nice to have the integration I suppose) in order yo charge an EV. As mentioned even adding a 14-50 would do the job nicely for at hone charging. I just find it hard to believe Sunrun says it’s impossible to do this work. What about people who later remodel their home and electrical gets changed? What happens then? Too bad you didn’t have at least a 14-50 outlet added during their planning/install stage. Will be watching your thread to see how this plays out.

I dunno what happens if Tesla installs the whole home backup. I never got a whole home backup quote from Tesla. They originally were only going to do 3x Powerwalls to back up the 90A interior loads panel and leave my AC's out since Lennox forbid the installation of soft-starts. Most people on TMC are smarter than me and bought their EVs before they went with Solar+ESS.

If a new EV charger were added to the backup load side after Tesla does a green energy install, it'd be interesting to learn how the electrician would be granted permission to "update" the backup loads.

If not on the backup side, I don't know who would come back and add the CT to an existing Tesla system so the EV charger were metered.

I get the feeling Sunrun just wants to focus on what they do best (solar). This foray into Batteries for them was not well thought out and was definitely half-assed. I'd be surprised if they keep on doing Powerwalls after 2021. They'll probably go back to LG Chem (their Brightbox) tech, and only do partial-home backup on separate sub-panels like they did before 2020.

 

[holeydonut]

Is this only a concern because it's Sunrun?

I'm planning a whole home backup and Tesla Solar has approved it. However, I don't have an A/C or Tesla vehicle right now but I do plan on purchasing both next year. Would there be any issues adding both the A/C and Tesla to the backed up loads next year?

This issue isn't because of Sunrun. I've asked the mods to update the thread title.

Sunrun hasn't opined one way or another. The electricians themselves are the ones that don't want to touch "Sunrun's sub panels" because of their own internal polices around touching backup loads. Since the entire house is backed up, that kind of messes things up.

I think you should talk to your Tesla solar rep to get in writing what you are supposed to do if you add AC and EV chargers in the future. You'll have two major options when the time comes:

1) Adding the new loads on the backup side; which would require someone to re-assess whether your Powerwalls would support the new loads

2) Adding the new loads on the non-backup side; which would require someone to provide some method of metering the non-backup side and ensuring your ESS could export energy upstream (when the utility were operational).

I guess it'd help to know Tesla's policies around a 3rd party Electrician touching their gear to begin with. "Their gear" in my point of view is anything on their solar or backup side of your house as well as the Tesla Gateway.