100% drive unit failure rate??

[JRP3]

The problem sounds like an unintentional ground path rather than a short. It sounds like something is breaking down the insulation. If the motors are going faster now than originally, then it sounds like the current is increasing. Finding odd ground paths can be very tough. Shorts are usually pretty easy to find.

We still don't know for sure if the problem is electrically induced or not.

If it was an engineering problem, it would be universal or almost universal. Manufacturing problems are more scattershot.

Agree, but my point was his car is not an isolated incident. A good number of cars are seeing multiple drive unit replacements.

Elon Musk said it on the investor's call last week with JB Straubel there. I would call that credible.

I don't remember him saying the Q revision drive units were the million mile drive units.

Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive OfficerYeah, right now, we're actually very happy with the quality of the drive units. I mean, internally, our goal – we changed the goal of the drive unit endurance from being approximately 200,000 miles to being 1 million miles. Just basically we want drive units that just never wear out. That's our goal. And I think we've made really good progress in that direction. So the drive units going out now and for the last several months have been excellent. So...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology OfficerYeah, we should probably note that, I mean, we've also made improvements to the large drive unit and those issues were really limited to early population large drive units. So today we hold the same standard on both units that are being built.Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive OfficerYeah, exactly. There was like this one period of time where we had, I mean, it was like that was getting into the weeds, like we transitioned from manual, just before we transitioned to automatic grease injection into the spline of the large drive unit, we had variation in how much grease was put into the spline. And if not enough grease was put into the spline, it would have premature wear. That's, like, one example. But other than that, the large drive units have been great.

No mention of the Q revision and no confirmation that they have yet actually created a million mile drive unit.

 

[ChadFeldheimer]

If it was an engineering problem, it would be universal or almost universal. Manufacturing problems are more scattershot.

If a part was not specified to sufficiently tight tolerances, that would be an engineering problem - yet could still manifest as "scattershot".

 

[jgallops]

I have been reading this thread for a while. It is not clear to me that the D models have this problem? The 85D has 2 small motors. Do they also do this? The P85D has a large and a small motor.

I guess I am trying to figure out if the problem is strictly a big motor problem or the same thing affects the small motors.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Lemon law would definitely apply here since the car has been in for the same repair multiple times to no avail.

Lemon law typically has a time limit as it is intended for new cars. He already indicated that in the first year there were no major problems, so in his case it doesn't really apply. He could try but the chances are far lower than if serious issues happened in the first year.

 

[islandbayy]

Lemon law typically has a time limit as it is intended for new cars. He already indicated that in the first year there were no major problems, so in his case it doesn't really apply. He could try but the chances are far lower than if serious issues happened in the first year.

Correct. While I had many many many many minor issues the first year, the total days out of service did not reach 30. Basically, in Wisconsin, it must be out of service (in the shop) for 30 or more days within the first year, OR have a Major defect that prevents operation/use of the vehicle 4 times or more. While I had a large number of minor repairs the first year, it did not reach 30 days out of service. Tesla's service is just that quick (1-2 day turn around each visit). Wisconsin has one of the best lemon laws in the country (We're top 5 for lemon law). If it went to a Jury (Available if arbitration does not resolve the differences), I may have a decent chance and would likely win, however, it is the likeliness that I don't win, that would financially ruin me paying all the lawyer fees. I do want Tesla to succeed, and I am also not a litigious person. I'm currently working the regional manager to see what options are.

 

[wdolson]

We still don't know for sure if the problem is electrically induced or not.



Agree, but my point was his car is not an isolated incident. A good number of cars are seeing multiple drive unit replacements.




I don't remember him saying the Q revision drive units were the million mile drive units.



No mention of the Q revision and no confirmation that they have yet actually created a million mile drive unit.

Neither of them said revision Q, though they did seem to imply the latest drive units have the fix, which is revision Q.

And yes, there isn't a definitive answer that the problem is electrically induced, though I believe someone in this thread said a service manager told them the problem is seen in P models more than the base model and the P models are tweaked to pump more current. The evidence I've seen leads me to believe the problem has some kind of electric component to it.

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If a part was not specified to sufficiently tight tolerances, that would be an engineering problem - yet could still manifest as "scattershot".

True, something with too loose a tolerance would be a problem, though mechanical parts with too loose a tolerance is now one of the first places QA engineers look at when these sorts of problems crop up.

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I have been reading this thread for a while. It is not clear to me that the D models have this problem? The 85D has 2 small motors. Do they also do this? The P85D has a large and a small motor.

I guess I am trying to figure out if the problem is strictly a big motor problem or the same thing affects the small motors.

I believe the rear motor is the same in the 85D and P85D. The front motor in the P85D is bigger.

According to the quote from the investor's call above, the problem has cropped up more in the big motors than the small motors. Though the small motors were introduced in late 2014. The big motors go back to the original production cars.

 

[Brightonuk]

I'm booked for my second Drive unit swap and was wondering the lead time these days
The first swap was done the same day I took it in this time I have been waiting two weeks and was told it takes up to six weeks to get a new one?

 

[Pollux]

I think this point escapes reviewers and most non-Tesla owners. It is so (relatively) freakin' easy to remove a battery pack and swap it, or remove a DU and swap it. Even the expense is not totally overwhelming given that these things go back to the factory and get remanufactured. Unlike ICE engines, where digging into the engine, removing the engine, replacing the engine... all are big, complicated, expensive endeavors.

So Tesla swaps earlier and more often because its vehicle design permits that choice to be made at a lower cost to them and for that matter a lower cost to the customer (in time and one day non-warranty labor dollars).

CR also equates replacing the DU with an engine change on an ICE. While it is roughly analogous, Tesla does swap DUs in part because it's far easier than pulling the engine on an ICE. Most DU replacements wouldn't have happened with an ICE, the service center would have tried to fix the problem without pulling the motor.

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It they are putting re-manufactured DUs in, sometimes those may have problems that didn't get fixed the first time, which may be why people keep going back time and time again.

And perhaps some of the reman's are getting fixed well... perhaps the category I fall into, with an original that failed after 10 months and a reman that has been fine for 17 months.

Alan

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Hi, @Mike Tuccelli,

I myself heard only a louder hum from the motor; depending on your hearing loss, you wouldn't hear it. I suspect you wouldn't hear the milling sounds as well, although at least one correspondent (@mknox) reports a very loud noise.

I suggest that in your case, first you should keep in mind that the likelihood of being struck by the problem may be low (although no one knows exactly, there's not enough data that has been exposed on this forum). Second, you might ask a hearing friend or relative to take a ride with you every now and then. Maybe once a month? And ask them if they hear any loud noises from the drive unit. Third, if you're still nervous about this, you might contact your service center and ask them if you can drop by once every three months (basically, once per quarter) to have them listen to the car. Not any big service time or requirements (except on your fourth visit it will be time for your annual service), just a quick listen. When you point out to them that you can't hear this for yourself, they should be reasonably understanding.

Alan

This scares me as I'm deaf and won't know if I have a bad drive unit. Are there other indications I should be aware of in lieu of not being able to hear a milling sound?

 

[JRP3]

Neither of them said revision Q, though they did seem to imply the latest drive units have the fix, which is revision Q.

The phrase " I think we've made really good progress in that direction. " does not suggest they have a definitive fix or that they've achieved the million mile drive unit.

And yes, there isn't a definitive answer that the problem is electrically induced, though I believe someone in this thread said a service manager told them the problem is seen in P models more than the base model and the P models are tweaked to pump more current. The evidence I've seen leads me to believe the problem has some kind of electric component to it.

More current means more torque, and higher torque means greater mechanical stress.

 

[supratachophobia]

I have been reading this thread for a while. It is not clear to me that the D models have this problem? The 85D has 2 small motors. Do they also do this? The P85D has a large and a small motor.

I guess I am trying to figure out if the problem is strictly a big motor problem or the same thing affects the small motors.

This is my question as well. By spreading the load between two motors, are the DU issues severely reduced or eliminated?

 

[cwerdna]

What @dwolson said makes sense. Something else must be going on with your car. Would the Lemon Law apply here?

Lemon laws vary by state.

For islandbayy: Wisconsin DMV Official Government Site - Lemon Law
For you, Neech: Illinois Attorney General - Lemon Law

 

[davidc18]

Mine is getting the front DU changed on the 25th which will be about 5 weeks since the SC ordered the part.

I'm booked for my second Drive unit swap and was wondering the lead time these days
The first swap was done the same day I took it in this time I have been waiting two weeks and was told it takes up to six weeks to get a new one?

 

[st50maint]

Mine is getting the front DU changed on the 25th which will be about 5 weeks since the SC ordered the part.

What is the reason for the front DU change on your 70D?
i have inquired about the whistling noise coming from the front of my 70D but 2 different service centers both say it is normal.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Weird. -Q is supposed to be the reengineered million mile DU.

I don't believe there is any confirmation of this.

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\In view of this and other early adopter reliability issues, I'm quite surprised that resale prices for 2012's and 2013's are so high. With a new car only being a little bit more (especially with tax credits), why expose yourself to those issues to a much greater degree?

DU issues are not specific to early vehicles, as islandbayy and many others have already confirmed. I've had three DU replacements, most recently in February of 2015. I've had DUs manufactured in 2013 and 2014 that have gone bad, others have had 2015 built DUs go bad, so please let's put to bed this nonsense that only early cars are somehow more prone to this problem. Nothing could be further from the truth given reports of recently manufactured units needing replacement. Does that mean cars built in 2015 are unreliable? No. The same concept holds true for earlier builds.

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Elon Musk said it on the investor's call last week with JB Straubel there. I would call that credible.

He made no reference to a Q revision drive unit during the investor call. All he said was DUs produced in the last few months have been excellent. That's all he said about the quality.

 

[wdolson]

I don't believe there is any confirmation of this.

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DU issues are not specific to early vehicles, as islandbayy and many others have already confirmed. I've had three DU replacements, most recently in February of 2015. I've had DUs manufactured in 2013 and 2014 that have gone bad, others have had 2015 built DUs go bad, so please let's put to bed this nonsense that only early cars are somehow more prone to this problem. Nothing could be further from the truth given reports of recently manufactured units needing replacement. Does that mean cars built in 2015 are unreliable? No. The same concept holds true for earlier builds.

Most of the stories I've seen of DU Problems are in early build cars. Many of those early build cars have had new DU replacements and still had problems. That points to something in the car itself that is causing DUs to have problems.

I also stress the difference between DU failures and DU problems. There have been many people who have had problems with the DU leading to replacement by a service center, but there have been very few failures. A failure meaning you have been stuck someplace with the car non-operational and the problem was the DU.

I wish someone would start a spreadsheet to track DU problems like others have done to track other things (such as deliveries) so we can see what vintage of car is having the problems. I've seen some people hair on fire about this, and it looks like it's still a current problem for some people, but I'd prefer to see some real data than anecdotal stories. Though Tesla is the only place that has truly good data on this because they know the maintenance history on every car they have ever built.

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The phrase " I think we've made really good progress in that direction. " does not suggest they have a definitive fix or that they've achieved the million mile drive unit.



More current means more torque, and higher torque means greater mechanical stress.

True, but that doesn't adequately explain how a brand new DU can develop problems on an older car unless the chassis of the car has been warped, but that would show up when they try to install a new DU and the holes don't line up. Electrical current flowing through an unintended ground path is the only thing I can think of that could be causing the patterns of problems seen.

 

[FredTMC]

I don't believe there is any confirmation of this.

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DU issues are not specific to early vehicles, as islandbayy and many others have already confirmed. I've had three DU replacements, most recently in February of 2015. I've had DUs manufactured in 2013 and 2014 that have gone bad, others have had 2015 built DUs go bad, so please let's put to bed this nonsense that only early cars are somehow more prone to this problem. Nothing could be further from the truth given reports of recently manufactured units needing replacement. Does that mean cars built in 2015 are unreliable? No. The same concept holds true for earlier builds.

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He made no reference to a Q revision drive unit during the investor call. All he said was DUs produced in the last few months have been excellent. That's all he said about the quality.

Heres my theory on these multiple failures. Basically, it is as Elon said "DUs produced in the last few months have been excellent".

In other words, some of the replacement DUs that folks have received weren't the new latest design (that included the larger rotor /spline design).

I find it it easy to believe that early DUs with issues including "milling" were replaced with a remanufactured unit of similar design. I had my DU replaced after ~25k. My reman DU has over 30k and hasn't produced any problems (yet).

My assumption is that once tesla started ramping up production on the NEW DU, there weren't enough of these to go around for a while. Therefore, some replacement DUs were still older design remanufactured units (like mine).

Tesla expanded their DU manufacturing capabilities this summer as part of their factory expansion. I think these NEW design units will start making their way service centers as replacements once tesla DU manufacturing catches up with all the motors needed for Q4 ramp.

Thats my theory.

 

[kort677]

Most of the stories I've seen of DU Problems are in early build cars.

what is an early build car to you?

 

[ohmman]

what is an early build car to you?

Anything before "a couple of months ago"...? :wink:

 

[wdolson]

what is an early build car to you?

I'd like to see the data on problem rates before I would draw lines. 2012 and 2013 cars are definitely "early". I don't know how late to draw the line though.

 

[aaronw]

They're replacing my DU for the second time in my P85. The first time it didn't need it as far as I'm concerned. I just commented on the new sound that was coming from the inverter under high output that everyone else had commented on. It made no difference after they did the swap. They're swapping it a second time due to a buzzing sound coming from the inverter when it's outputting 20-30KW. It's been buzzing for a while and hasn't been an issue though it is somewhat annoying and a bit loud outside the car. My car is fairly early, from March 2013 and I have around 34K miles on my P85. I also tend to accelerate hard when I get the chance. The only time my car has ever been towed was when I discovered a bubble in the tire sidewall and Tesla insisted that they tow it.