12v battery issue, Tesla unsatisfactory response

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm not a battery expert!
https://www.pepboys.com/prostart-car-battery-group-size-51r/product/9074165
https://www.pepboys.com/prostart-car-battery-group-size-51/product/9074158
R has terminal on the right! (when the battery is reversed from the picture)

Thanks. Yeah I looked up a link and edited my post as well.

So the manufacturer document is wrong. Might be wrong about it not being AGM too, but the price suggests it is not AGM.

 

[ALdawg]

My experience with a failed 12V battery is likely to lead me to proactive replacements.

June 2018 LR RWD Model 3 is currently dead in the driveway with 32K miles and was not initially accessible through the app. We tried to jumpstart the car. Briefly, the display booted and displayed a 12V battery warning. The car promptly dies and we were not able to restart car even with a mobile battery jump. I was offered a tow to ATL (160 miles) or mobile tech visit in five days with the expectation that 12V battery is the problem. I hope that is all it is and should be covered under warranty. Even with the portable jumpstarter connected to the battery, we now cannot enter the car and my wife’s wallet is locked inside. This does not seem as simple as "jumpstart car and drive to Costco".

Separately this car is still waiting on HW 3.0 upgrade. I was getting emails about parts being on order since June but those just mysteriously stopped.

Some followup on my service visit:

The mobile tech came out and replaced the battery. The car remained bricked. We had to turn off wifi in my house, apply a battery charger, call in additional support, and finally disconnect and reconnect the main battery to get car to wake up. The mobile tech did not use a jumpstarter to attempt to restart car. He had a battery charger to supply continuous power.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H8N99YU/ref=twister_B016VWYQZA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

On a positive note, he also found two sets of parts we have been waiting for including a Model S AC sensor for my wife’s car and my HW 3.0 upgrade. Overall it was a great experience other than having to wait five days. My conclusion is that battery replacement may be much more complicated than just picking up another battery and hooking up terminals.

 

[P3dStealth]

I don't think it matters what side the terminal is on. You can flip the battery around. The cables reach either way.

 

[Daniel in SD]

So the manufacturer document is wrong. Might be wrong about it not being AGM too, but the price suggests it is not AGM.

Yeah, you would think Tesla wouldn't want to use expensive AGM batteries when every other car manufacturer uses the cheap stuff.
The only reason they switched to AGM batteries on the Model S is because they screwed up the battery management and were killing batteries way too fast. It's ironic that Tesla probably has the best Li-ion battery management in the industry but the worst lead acid system (except for maybe BMW).

 

[vickh]

Yeah, you would think Tesla wouldn't want to use expensive AGM batteries when every other car manufacturer uses the cheap stuff.
The only reason they switched to AGM batteries on the Model S is because they screwed up the battery management and were killing batteries way too fast. It's ironic that Tesla probably has the best Li-ion battery management in the industry but the worst lead acid system (except for maybe BMW).

yes. example of paying too little attention to basic car functions like AC filters.

 

[P3dStealth]

Someone figure out how to fit a dual battery with isolation in this thing. I had a previous truck with dual batteries and if you ever killed the 1 you could turn a switch and the secondary would start the car. When running it charged both. When off it isolated one.

 

[vickh]

Someone figure out how to fit a dual battery with isolation in this thing. I had a previous truck with dual batteries and if you ever killed the 1 you could turn a switch and the secondary would start the car. When running it charged both. When off it isolated one.

maybe put some sort of extender cables with a switch to the battery for easy jump/charge access, if locked out due to shut down

 

[Phlier]

it is the 12v battery’s job to power the entire 12v system, everything, at all times.

Actually, the 12v battery only supplies power to the 12v system when the car is asleep. Once the car is awake, the DC/DC convertor handles the 12v system loads, and also charges the 12v battery through the main pack.

But Teslas do have significantly different usage of 12v batteries. As you stated, ICE vehicles pull huge amps to crank the engine up, then basically do nothing. Modern ICE vehicles do have a tiny amount of phantom drain, but not as much as Teslas do. Teslas use the 12v battery for system monitoring while the vehicle is asleep, and to also keep the cameras going when Sentry Mode is active.

I wish it was possible to get a large enough sample size here on the forums for a poll about how much guys/gals used Sentry Mode vs early 12v battery failures. My crystal ball says that most of the early failures were from people using Sentry Mode a lot more than people that haven't had early failures. And if Tesla's charging algorithm for keeping the 12v healthy isn't good, that just compounds the issue.

IMO, the problems we're seeing with 12v batteries is likely due to: 1. Possible bad batch of batteries from their supplier. 2. Poor charging logic. 3. Both 1 & 2.

I live in the hot desert. We replace ICE 12v batteries every two years here. I'm at 13 months on my Model 3 battery, and it's still going strong, but I *rarely* use Sentry Mode as the car is garaged every night.

From the posts I've seen here, there have been a lot of batteries simply outright failing. Rather than slowly going bad over time, which would trip the "replace 12v battery soon" message, they're simply failing. This makes me think they got a bad batch of batteries, as I've *never* seen a 12v battery just outright fail.

I think a lot of the issue guys have with the 12v battery leaving them stranded is that, with an ICE vehicle, we're all used to going out to a car with a dead battery and going, "oh, the battery is dead." But with an electric vehicle, there's a bit of a mindshift... we think, ok, the main pack is charged, I should be good to go. Getting stranded by a dead 12v on a BEV just feels... wrong.

 

[EnrgyNDpndnce]

Is this the battery you ended up buying?

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...m-battery-group-size-51r/51rplt/5880657?pos=1

It has been several months so I’d have to go check my car to be sure, but yes that looks like the one.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It has been several months so I’d have to go check my car to be sure, but yes that looks like the one.

I would assume that would be a great battery since it's nearly twice as expensive as OEM. Probably will last longer than the one that came with the vehicle, which doesn't seem to be AGM. Hold down bracket fit no problem?

 

[EnrgyNDpndnce]

I'm inclined to believe that this is Tesla's fault given how hostile they are to third parties working on the cars. Why is it that I can type any other car into O'reillys part finder and get a battery? Probably every other auto parts store too, I doubt it's a massive conspiracy against Tesla.

How on earth would this be Tesla’s fault? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s incompetence. Like I said, the young man trying to “help” me find the right battery didn’t even know Tesla was a car manufacturer. He works at a flipping auto parts store! Unfortunately this is the sort of “customer service” one can expect almost everywhere not called Chikfila. That’s why I did my own research before going to O’Reilly’s and knew what I needed without the help of their in store system. That information is readily and easily available to anyone who can access the internet, so there’s no excuse for O’Reilly’s or Autozone or any national auto parts retailer to not have that information available to any customer who walks in and asks for a 12V for his 2018 Tesla Model 3.

 

[EnrgyNDpndnce]

I would assume that would be a great battery since it's nearly twice as expensive as OEM. Probably will last longer than the one that came with the vehicle, which doesn't seem to be AGM. Hold down bracket fit no problem?

Yes it fit like a glove. I actually took my old battery with me to the store to compare physical dimensions before buying. AFAIK the OEM is an AGM battery. And I don’t expect this one will be any better than the OEM part despite costing almost twice as much. My OEM battery lasted 80k miles so if this one matches that I’ll be satisfied. My battery died on a Sunday morning so I could wait a day (maybe longer) to get an OEM part from Tesla or get this one in an hour and go for a Sunday drive. I decided to spend a bit more and enjoy my car.

 

[Watts_Up]

I bought one from AEG, but there are many on Amazon that are essentially the same hardware just rebranded and all using the same app. Works fine with the frunk closed and me inside the car. Also was able to pull up the app about 10 meters away and it connected. If anything, my car is likely more challenging than a stock Model 3 as I have installed soundproofing inside the Frunk and on the Frunk hood. So I don't see anyone else having any issues.

I used to use ScanMyTesla as well, however I recently installed the Hannshow HUD which uses the same rear console diagnostic port. So I removed the OBD dongle as I wanted the HUD.

Here are some options:

This one was not an option for me as they would not ship to Switzerland, but good brand:

https://www.amazon.com/ANCEL-BM300-...ywords=battery+monitor&qid=1600768795&sr=8-13

This is the same hardware as mine but rebranded. Uses the same app as me:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MT4583...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

[Phlier]

Is this the battery you ended up buying?

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...m-battery-group-size-51r/51rplt/5880657?pos=1

It has been several months so I’d have to go check my car to be sure, but yes that looks like the one.

The battery in the link in the quoted post does not look like it's a deep cycle type. I'm not a battery expert by any means, but I do know just enough to be dangerous. Take the difference between "deep cycle" batteries and what would be considered a "standard" ICE battery...

Deep Cycle batteries are meant to deliver lower total amperage, and the battery is designed to be discharged fairly deeply and fully recharged often. These types of batteries are often used in recreational vehicles. These batteries are NOT designed to deliver the huge current needed to start a gas engine.

"Standard" ICE batteries are designed to give huge amounts of cranking amperage to start a vehicle, and that's it; they are not designed for long continuous low amperage loads.

The Model 3 OEM battery is deep cycle, which makes perfect sense considering how the Model 3 uses 12v power... no cranking amperage required.

From what I've read, using a standard battery in a Tesla will kill it in short order.

While that battery technically "fits" in the car, the battery type itself is not suitable for use in a Model 3. Unless, of course, that battery is available in a deep cycle type.

 

[one2many]

I do agree perhaps a little too much drama. I dated girls on hills for a long time because
my starter did not work, the old push start dates. Yes on very cold days the battery would die.
Had a shorted spark plug once, bearing froze on A/C unit, ate the fan belts, points, electronic
ignition units, bad seal shorted out my Mecerdes S class, broken gears on the rear end of a BMW,
had to use a hair dryer on the carb in cold weather (auto choke), flat tires, engine fires, timing belts,
and the list goes on. The best of all was the German fire department was called in because my gas
tank was leaking so they took my gas out of my tank and left me a note that I had no gas.

Sorry forgot a few, Head gasket blew, sort of like a spa treatment for those who need
oil and antifrezse in a blue smoke format. Oh the love of water pumps, I should have been one of
the buy 10 and get the next free. A spun bearing is always fun, a real show stopper. I love the guys
that (helped me Replaced trany's , yelling stab it stab it. Well the clutch replacements were also
lots of fun. Oh the trough out bearing. And lets not forget the freeze plug, rubber water hoses,
and the always fun radiator, leaks, overheating and so on. sorry for my ramble .

 

[P3dStealth]

I think I am going to try a deep cycle RV battery in mine if it goes out. This company has a 5 year warranty. Someone should ask them to make a tesla specific model.

America's Best Deep Cycle RV Battery| Lifeline Batteries

 

[Watts_Up]

I bought one from AEG, but there are many on Amazon that are
essentially the same hardware just rebranded and all using the same app.

$40 - Battery Monitor ANCEL BM300 Bluetooth Voltmeter​

$30 - QUICKLYNKS Auto Battery Monitor BM2 Bluetooth 4.0 12V Battery Tester​

Thank you for the links. I just ordered the Quicklynks device.

I also installed the Android App from AEG, Ancel, and BatteryMole.

I wonder if any of those Apps can display more than 24 hours of data?

If I am not driving, I would be interested to review the discharge time
until the DC charger get triggered and how long the charging last.​

Also, is it possible to download the results on a computer?

I noticed the 'BM3' App which seems to provide additional analysis capabilities?

But I wonder if you evaluated this App which is a little bit pricey and didn't get great reviews.​

 

[Daniel in SD]

How on earth would this be Tesla’s fault? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s incompetence. Like I said, the young man trying to “help” me find the right battery didn’t even know Tesla was a car manufacturer. He works at a flipping auto parts store!

That is not even remotely surprising. You are 100% correct that I can't prove my suspicion.
I think it's odd that O'reillys has batteries for so many other EVs in their database and not Tesla. You can get a battery for an e-Tron at O'reillys! They even have some application notes. I suspect it's the same for other auto parts stores. Maybe it's that other automakers publish specifications for their batteries? I have no idea.

So, who's going to take apart an OEM battery and see if it's actually AGM?

 

[iwannam3]

I don't think it matters what side the terminal is on. You can flip the battery around. The cables reach either way.

Vent is by the negative terminal, needs to be connected to the tubing.

 

[iwannam3]

Yeah, you would think Tesla wouldn't want to use expensive AGM batteries when every other car manufacturer uses the cheap stuff.
The only reason they switched to AGM batteries on the Model S is because they screwed up the battery management and were killing batteries way too fast. It's ironic that Tesla probably has the best Li-ion battery management in the industry but the worst lead acid system (except for maybe BMW).

AGM batteries have a vent and do not produce as much explosive hydrogen gas. My Mini had one because the battery was in the rear of the pass compartment. Same with my Prius. If the battery is not in an open space freely vented, they want it to be AGM and vented through a tube.