14-50 in a condo complex

[andy92782]

Helpful, thanks.

Is there a specific version of the DCC I should get? I know there is one for 40A, 50A and 60A.

And just to put a finer point on your explanation - if I'm using 40A, even though that's less that 80% (48A) of 60A, the DCC will know not to power the charger? Is that because the charger sends a signal to the DCC saying it needs 24A, and the DCC says, "no, you're already using 40A in the house, sorry"?

You'll want the 30A version (DCC-9-30A), but best to let your electrician handle this. Mine ordered the DCC directly from them.

If you're using 40A in your condo, the DCC will do nothing. The moment you turn on the EV charger the current will quickly spike to 64A and within milliseconds the DCC will shut off the EV charger circuit, bringing current back down to 40A again.

The interface between the EV charger and the DCC is a 'dumb' one. There's no communication between the two other than the electricity itself. There are certainly lots of opportunities for companies to develop "smart" EV chargers which vary load to the car dynamically based on overall load, but A) they aren't really "out there" yet, and B) any such product will need to be UL approved in order for it to meet code. When you think of the UL, imagine a bureaucracy run by a bunch of crusty old skeptics. They move at a glacial pace.

 

[andy92782]

The interface between the EV charger and the DCC is a 'dumb' one. There's no communication between the two other than the electricity itself. There are certainly lots of opportunities for companies to develop "smart" EV chargers which vary load to the car dynamically based on overall load, but A) they aren't really "out there" yet, and B) any such product will need to be UL approved in order for it to meet code. When you think of the UL, imagine a bureaucracy run by a bunch of crusty old skeptics. They move at a glacial pace.

Just to follow up on myself, there's actually sort of a solution for this already. The Gen 2 Tesla Wall Connector has some smarts in it. You can connect a Raspberry Pi with an RS485 adapter up to the Gen2 TWC and use software running on the Pi to dynamically change the charging current in real time.

Tesla Owner Hacks The Tesla Wall Connector To Charge On Sunshine

I suppose if you were a home automation geek you use something like Home Assistant to monitor your AC and send a command to the TWC to lower charge current before requesting a lower temperature via the AC. Personally, I lack the motivation to pursue this, even though home automation is a subject that interests me

 

[1965Falcon]

You'll want the 30 amp DCC, it's the only one approved for a 60 amp service:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2...ec_Sheet_DCC-10_v7-vf.pdf?4113152567415230232

Then you can have a nema 10-30 amp outlet installed and use your mobile connector to charge from. Yes, pretty easy install.

How it works is that it monitors how much power is going to you main panel (condo in your case) and if you approach the combined max load from both your EV charging and your condo (48 amps) then it cuts the power to your EV until the usage in your condo drops below 24 amps and you have the capacity to charge at 24 amps and not exceed the 48 (assuming a 30 amp charger).

To answer your other question, yes, it would be better to have a separate service installed however that might be a more difficult sell for your HOA as it's going to increase the overall load of the building and they are probably thinking about what could be done for each unit if this becomes more popular.

 

[1965Falcon]

Lol, need to finish my replies before someone else does! Andy beat me too it.

 

[Beachybumm]

Just to follow up on myself, there's actually sort of a solution for this already. The Gen 2 Tesla Wall Connector has some smarts in it. You can connect a Raspberry Pi with an RS485 adapter up to the Gen2 TWC and use software running on the Pi to dynamically change the charging current in real time.

Tesla Owner Hacks The Tesla Wall Connector To Charge On Sunshine

I suppose if you were a home automation geek you use something like Home Assistant to monitor your AC and send a command to the TWC to lower charge current before requesting a lower temperature via the AC. Personally, I lack the motivation to pursue this, even though home automation is a subject that interests me

Ha, I'm not THAT motivated!

 

[Beachybumm]

You'll want the 30 amp DCC, it's the only one approved for a 60 amp service:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2...ec_Sheet_DCC-10_v7-vf.pdf?4113152567415230232

Then you can have a nema 10-30 amp outlet installed and use your mobile connector to charge from. Yes, pretty easy install.

How it works is that it monitors how much power is going to you main panel (condo in your case) and if you approach the combined max load from both your EV charging and your condo (48 amps) then it cuts the power to your EV until the usage in your condo drops below 24 amps and you have the capacity to charge at 24 amps and not exceed the 48 (assuming a 30 amp charger).

To answer your other question, yes, it would be better to have a separate service installed however that might be a more difficult sell for your HOA as it's going to increase the overall load of the building and they are probably thinking about what could be done for each unit if this becomes more popular.

What is the benefit of having a new meter installed? LADWP offer a 2.5 cent discount per KwH for an independent meter, but I only drive about 600 miles/mo, which is about two full charges on a M3 LR. At full capacity, that's 150Kwh, so that saves me $3.75, which financially makes no sense. It'd take me a 100 years to recover my investment.

But if installing a DCC-9 as well a plug is the same price, it seems like my better option is the ToU EV meter route, because I could get a full 60amps (which I don't need).

Should both of these installs cost about $3000? It just feels like the DCC-9 install should be way less, but I guess the box itself is $1k.

 

[Beachybumm]

You'll want the 30 amp DCC, it's the only one approved for a 60 amp service:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2...ec_Sheet_DCC-10_v7-vf.pdf?4113152567415230232

Then you can have a nema 10-30 amp outlet installed and use your mobile connector to charge from. Yes, pretty easy install.

How it works is that it monitors how much power is going to you main panel (condo in your case) and if you approach the combined max load from both your EV charging and your condo (48 amps) then it cuts the power to your EV until the usage in your condo drops below 24 amps and you have the capacity to charge at 24 amps and not exceed the 48 (assuming a 30 amp charger).

To answer your other question, yes, it would be better to have a separate service installed however that might be a more difficult sell for your HOA as it's going to increase the overall load of the building and they are probably thinking about what could be done for each unit if this becomes more popular.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason I can't install a 14-50 plug and a 50 amp DCC-9? In this case, the DCC-9 would kick in when the total load goes over 40amps. But at night, if I'm only using, say 20amps, doesn't that leave 40amps for a 10-50 plug?

 

[Beachybumm]

You'll want the 30A version (DCC-9-30A), but best to let your electrician handle this. Mine ordered the DCC directly from them.

If you're using 40A in your condo, the DCC will do nothing. The moment you turn on the EV charger the current will quickly spike to 64A and within milliseconds the DCC will shut off the EV charger circuit, bringing current back down to 40A again.

The interface between the EV charger and the DCC is a 'dumb' one. There's no communication between the two other than the electricity itself. There are certainly lots of opportunities for companies to develop "smart" EV chargers which vary load to the car dynamically based on overall load, but A) they aren't really "out there" yet, and B) any such product will need to be UL approved in order for it to meet code. When you think of the UL, imagine a bureaucracy run by a bunch of crusty old skeptics. They move at a glacial pace.

So the main breaker won't trip in that millisecond power surge before the DCC kicks in?

 

[21miDay]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason I can't install a 14-50 plug and a 50 amp DCC-9? In this case, the DCC-9 would kick in when the total load goes over 40amps. But at night, if I'm only using, say, doesn't that leave 50amps for a 10-50 plug?

You are trying hard to make this work. Don't dismiss the lower amp options. At 25 miles per day you will be fine with a lower amp connection. I charge with the UMC at 12A and never give it a thought.

 

[EfficientWatts]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason I can't install a 14-50 plug and a 50 amp DCC-9? In this case, the DCC-9 would kick in when the total load goes over 40amps. But at night, if I'm only using, say 20amps, doesn't that leave 40amps for a 10-50 plug?

Electrician Support Hotline for DCC-9 and DCC-10 | Contact Us

Suggest contacting them for an official reason.

But to guess I suspect that is has something to do with the fact that a potential 40A load leave little room for margin (60A * 80% = 48A - 40A = 8 Amps), so it will shut off the charger often, or that if you're charging at the full 40A and suddenly a bunch of devices turn on (AC, electric dryer, stove, etc) it could trip the main breaker before the DCC device can turn off the charger. On the other hand with 30A, it would be 48A - 24A = 24A, which leave more room for like the AC turning on at night.

 

[Beachybumm]

You are trying hard to make this work. Don't dismiss the lower amp options. At 25 miles per day you will be fine with a lower amp connection. I charge with the UMC at 12A and never give it a thought.

Is that 12A off a 6-15 switch? How many miles do you get per hour on that? And do you think I could install that on my 60amp breaker without adding a dcc-9 or any additional subpanels in my electrical room? I guess I'm unclear how you power a switch without a dcc-9 if there's no subpanel in the subterranean electrical room.

 

[MikeHolliday]

I'm still not clear on why I'd need to upgrade anything. If the main breaker is able to power 15 units, plus a condo security system, plus garage lights, then it seems that it should be able to supply an EV charger. And I guess I don't understand why my unit's box can't just have an additional circuit added rather than going from the main box. If that main box can power it, why can't I just route extra power to my panel?

Perhaps I am late in the game, but I will try to help youi understand. If your Condo, has a 60 Amp Main Panel and you have air conditioning and electrical appliances then you have zero spare amperage available to use for charging. You could upgrade to a 90 AMP main panel for your condo and add a 30 Amp Charger, upgrade to a 125 Amp Main Panel add a 50 Amp Charger or upgrade to a 150 Amp Main Panel and add a 60 Amp Charger, you will also be required to add a second ground rod to meet the Building Code. Depending on your location in the country, replacing a Panel is about $800 to $1,200 on average.

 

[MikeHolliday]

FYI, I sent photos of my electrical room to an electrician. He said that I only have 60amps to my unit and there's no way any plug can be added because there are only 10 amps left after powering my house. I have no clue how he decided there were only 10 amps left, but maybe that's standard?

He also said that the only individual unit device in the electrical room (near my car) is a breaker and a meter. There's no panel to add onto in that room, other than the master HOA panel. He said my sub panel is in my unit.

He said my only choice is to either add a dedicated line with a time meter for 4k or tap into the master HOA box.

It's strange to me that there's no way to tap into my individual unit's electricity from the electrical room, but I guess that's the case. My HOA is super cheap. I doubt they'd let me add on to their communal panel.

You would need to install a larger sub-Panel and a larger breaker in the Condos Master Panel and you may have to increase the size of wire from the Master Panel to your Sub-Panel. you will need about a 2/0 guage wire between the Master Panel and your sub-Panel. These are not exact numbers, but should be pretty close.

I read stories of individuals who know zero about electrical codes installing Wall Connectors that are very dangerous. I used an independent licensed electrician to upgrade my panel. I got his name from the Tesla website under installer and then I installed my Wall Connector. He was less money than my son-in-law was for the same job... Find the Installer references here: Find an Electrician

 

[andy92782]

So the main breaker won't trip in that millisecond power surge before the DCC kicks in?

Correct. Circuit breakers don't trip instantaneously. A good example of this is what I posted earlier about AC systems kicking in. IAt my condo, the AC compressor is on a 30A breaker. If you read the panel on the side of the unit, there's a spec for something called LRA (locked rotor amps) that shows the peak/instant current the unit draws the moment you turn it on. This number was over 70A. Clearly enough to trip everything but it happens really quickly. You can see this when the lights momentarily dim right when the system turns on.

 

[andy92782]

Perhaps I am late in the game, but I will try to help youi understand. If your Condo, has a 60 Amp Main Panel and you have air conditioning and electrical appliances then you have zero spare amperage available to use for charging. You could upgrade to a 90 AMP main panel for your condo and add a 30 Amp Charger, upgrade to a 125 Amp Main Panel add a 50 Amp Charger or upgrade to a 150 Amp Main Panel and add a 60 Amp Charger, you will also be required to add a second ground rod to meet the Building Code. Depending on your location in the country, replacing a Panel is about $800 to $1,200 on average.

It's typically not possible to upgrade the size of a panel in a condo/HOA environment. There will be WAY too many hurdles to get through re: HOA and city approvals, and any upgrades to common area equipment will be a shared expense that all homeowners will need to help cover. It ain't gonna happen..... That's why the DCC is so useful.

 

[King_M3D]

I do have a panel in my individual unit, but it doesn't say how many amps are in it. There are a number of breakers in it.

How many miles per hour can a LR model 3 charge on a 14-30? And can I use the plug in Tesla home charger on this instead of hard wiring. I'm not sure if the 14-30 plug and 14-50 plug have the same number of prongs.

About 27 miles/hour of charge at 240V 30Amps

 

[brkaus]

It's typically not possible to upgrade the size of a panel in a condo/HOA environment. There will be WAY too many hurdles to get through re: HOA and city approvals, and any upgrades to common area equipment will be a shared expense that all homeowners will need to help cover. It ain't gonna happen..... That's why the DCC is so useful.

I just wish the WC had the functionality built in. Just need a remote current sensor on the main line. The WC could handle the rest, ideally without ever cutting the circuit off at all. Just lowering the current.

 

[21miDay]

Is that 12A off a 6-15 switch? How many miles do you get per hour on that? And do you think I could install that on my 60amp breaker without adding a dcc-9 or any additional subpanels in my electrical room? I guess I'm unclear how you power a switch without a dcc-9 if there's no subpanel in the subterranean electrical room.

It is 12A off of a 15A outlet. I am not qualified to give advice on how to connect an outlet. I'm using this as an extreme example to point out that you don't need to try to get 60A instead of 40A or 30A. You would be fine with 30A or less.

EDIT: As far as miles per hour. That is what I meant when I said I don't give it a thought. I don't pay attention to how many miles per hour I get. I know that when I get in the car in the morning it will be ready to go. How quickly it gets there doesn't matter if it will have the whole night to charge.

 

[andy92782]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason I can't install a 14-50 plug and a 50 amp DCC-9? In this case, the DCC-9 would kick in when the total load goes over 40amps. But at night, if I'm only using, say 20amps, doesn't that leave 40amps for a 10-50 plug?

If you install a 14-50 plug on a 30A circuit it will not meet code. The "-50" implies it's a 50A circuit when in reality, it's a 30A circuit. Suppose you plugged an electric range into that plug and turned on all the burners and the oven... you'd trip the breaker inside the DCC because it's exceeding 30A. Electrical codes are meant to keep things safe and bulletproof, so that means disallowing a situation where something can pull more current than the circuit allows.

 

[andy92782]

I just wish the WC had the functionality built in. Just need a remote current sensor on the main line. The WC could handle the rest, ideally without ever cutting the circuit off at all. Just lowering the current.

We could build that today with a TWC 2.0, a Raspberry Pi and a commonly available current sensor. Problem is, none of it would be UL approved.