Breaker Box Advice

[Stack24]

Hi Everyone,

Just got my VIN and I am trying to schedule electricians to get quotes but was curious if I could understand what I might be in for in terms of it being an easy install or am I going to be paying a lot more.

We put in a pool recently so we only have 1 empty breaker slot but I see that we need to slots for a 60AMP Breaker. We don't currently use our dryer 240 volt which is in the utility room because we have a gas dryer that users a regular 110 plug to power it.

Would it be a scenario that they could consolidate some breakers or utilize that 240 that's not being used? Here is a picture of my breaker box. We have a newer home, built in 2019.

 

[RayK]

I'm not an electrician but I believe that you should have your entire breaker box examined by a pro. Some Square D boxes have been recalled. I'm sure that some of the experts here can probably tell you for sure based upon the label you posted. You should also ask the electrician to do a load analysis to see what they think your panel can handle (i.e., the rating of the new 240V breaker).

Your one empty slot will not be able to have a 240V breaker installed there; that requires two adjacent slots (like #1 and #3, or #5 and #7). Using your dryer breaker (#9/11) can work but note that in the future, you or the next homeowner, may change over to an electric dryer and you'll be sort of stuck trying to have both a dryer and an EVSE at the same time.

My opinion, would be to switch the circuit that's on breaker #29 to breaker #26 (since it looks currently unused; label is blank and breaker seems to be in the tripped position), which would free up #27/29 for a dual pole breaker.

If #26 is being used, then you could have a couple of adjacent (single pole) breakers replaced with a single tandem breaker (two breakers in one body). That can free up two slots next to each other.

 

[M3P Heavy]

You'll need a sub panel imo. I have the same panel and your house is probably pretty new like mine. You can't tandem the GFCI or arc fault breakers so you don't have many options of freeing up space.

 

[Sophias_dad]

There's no need for a subpanel, that's just silly.

Use the dryer breaker. Tape off the wires so they can be reconnected if needed.

If you want to add a new 240V breaker, you can combine almost any pair of the 20 amp not-GFCI and not-AFCI breakers to free up a single spot, thereby letting spots 27 and 29 be used for the new breaker. An obvious connection to combine would be the wire in spot 27 to breaker #10 or #26, but I don't know what each breaker is feeding.

 

[MN-MS100D]

I don't see an issue with total overall service load on that 200 amp service, and my opinion (from 1000 miles away) is that you could replace the dryer breaker with a 50 or 60 amp breaker and install a new circuit from the panel to the EVSE. Or, if the dryer outlet is nearby the garage (and the panel isn't nearby), you could repurpose the dryer outlet as a junction box and extend new 30A wiring from the old dryer outlet to the garage for your EVSE. Several option are at your disposal.

 

[ewoodrick]

If the panel has the capacity, you'd need to install some Square D Homeline 2-15 Amp Single-Pole Tandem Circuit Breaker HOMT1515CP - The Home Depot to make space for the 240V breaker.

The electrician shouldn't have to think twice about it.

But that 50A pool breaker may bring you over a 200A service limit.

 

[Stack24]

If the panel has the capacity, you'd need to install some Square D Homeline 2-15 Amp Single-Pole Tandem Circuit Breaker HOMT1515CP - The Home Depot to make space for the 240V breaker.

The electrician shouldn't have to think twice about it.

But that 50A pool breaker may bring you over a 200A service limit.

If that is the case with the service limit what would be my options in that situation? Does that mean I can't have it setup? Would the fact that I don't actually use my dryer outlet since it's a gas help in the load calculations being that nothing is plugged in?

I know it's not ideal and kind of rigging it, but since my utility room is right next to the garage is there a long enough extension cord that I could run from that connector up into the attic and back down into my garage and use a mobile connector at that point if needed? Don't know if they even make extensions that long or if that's safe to begin with.

I don't see an issue with total overall service load on that 200 amp service, and my opinion (from 1000 miles away) is that you could replace the dryer breaker with a 50 or 60 amp breaker and install a new circuit from the panel to the EVSE. Or, if the dryer outlet is nearby the garage (and the panel isn't nearby), you could repurpose the dryer outlet as a junction box and extend new 30A wiring from the old dryer outlet to the garage for your EVSE. Several option are at your disposal.

There's no need for a subpanel, that's just silly.

Use the dryer breaker. Tape off the wires so they can be reconnected if needed.

If you want to add a new 240V breaker, you can combine almost any pair of the 20 amp not-GFCI and not-AFCI breakers to free up a single spot, thereby letting spots 27 and 29 be used for the new breaker. An obvious connection to combine would be the wire in spot 27 to breaker #10 or #26, but I don't know what each breaker is feeding.

Thanks for all the information. I appreciate the time.

 

[DOCAL]

If that is the case with the service limit what would be my options in that situation? Does that mean I can't have it setup? Would the fact that I don't actually use my dryer outlet since it's a gas help in the load calculations being that nothing is plugged in?

Whether the dryer is included in load calculations might be a local permit thing (if you need permits in your area). I'm in a similar situation, I have a circuit for an electric dryer but have gas, and the local permit people wouldn't exclude it, so the most I could have was a 50A circuit for my wall connector. Which is still more than enough.

If you don't have the load capacity available, there is always the option of an automatic cut off switch, that monitors the total load on the panel, and disconnects the EV charger if it's above a limit. At a previous place I had one of the DCC boxes. That gets around the whole load problem.

 

[davewill]

Just in case the above posts didn't make it clear. There are half height breaker available to free up space in a nearly full panel like this. They can be used to shrink the space used by some of the existing circuits and free up the slot you need. Any professional electrician will know this. Assuming they determine you have the capacity (seems to me like you should), the install (from a panel POV) should be not be complex.

 

[DuncanM]

You don't need a subpanel, but given how full your main panel is, you probably should use one anyways and put it in the garage. Transfer some of the 120v loads to the subpanel including the exterior GFIs and the 240v breaker for the EVSE.

I'd also suggest looking at PV solar and hot water solar (for the pool) given your location and you'll might some 240v breakers for the PV invertors..

Depending on your daily/weekly average commute you may not need more than a 120V NEMA 5-20 outlet for the EVSE or a 240V NEMA 6-20; these will allow charging at 120V (about 1.7kw/hr into the car battery) or 240v 16amp (about 3.7kw/hr into the car) and will reduce your peak loads.

 

[ewoodrick]

If that is the case with the service limit what would be my options in that situation? Does that mean I can't have it setup? Would the fact that I don't actually use my dryer outlet since it's a gas help in the load calculations being that nothing is plugged in?

I know it's not ideal and kind of rigging it, but since my utility room is right next to the garage is there a long enough extension cord that I could run from that connector up into the attic and back down into my garage and use a mobile connector at that point if needed? Don't know if they even make extensions that long or if that's safe to begin with.



Thanks for all the information. I appreciate the time.

You may not have many options, especially ones that don't cost a fortune.

If your panel isn't sufficient, then you may need an additional panel.
For an additional panel, you may need increased electrical service from your provider.
For increased electrical service, they may need to install an additional transformer
For an additional (or larger) transformer, you may need.... Never mind, not going to happen.

But those are along the worse case.

I have two Teslas. We are currently alternating off of a single 120V 15A plug to charge them. That meets 95% of our needs and a hop to a DCFC solves the remainder of them.

Don't go down the path that you MUST have the fastest connection that you can get. A 120V 15A plug can add 60 miles in 12 hours. That's enough for the vast majority of commutes in the US. And even if your commute is 80 miles, maybe a once a week stop at a Supercharger would suffice.

So what can you do? Ask the electrician what is the most that you can get. That's probably good enough. If using the wall charger, there are a number of amperage settings that can be dialed in. If using the mobile charger, there are a number of adapters that can be used.

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And yes, the 120V 15A plug in the garage (as long as there isn't something like a refrigerator on it) can be used.

I'm using mine, because I don't quite feel the need for the $5000 to get more service into my garage.

 

[RayK]

<snip;quoting myself to correct an error I (and @Sophias_dad ) noticed>
My opinion, would be to switch the circuit that's on breaker #29 to breaker #26 (since it looks currently unused; label is blank and breaker seems to be in the tripped position), which would free up #27/29 for a dual pole breaker.

Above advice should read: "...that's on breaker #27 to breaker #26....

 

[MLXXXp]

If the panel has the capacity, you'd need to install some Square D Homeline 2-15 Amp Single-Pole Tandem Circuit Breaker HOMT1515CP - The Home Depot to make space for the 240V breaker.

If a load calculation says it's safe to add the desired two pole breaker for a charging circuit, it may not be necessary to repurpose the dryer breaker slots or even replace two single slot breakers with a tandem breaker. One of the nice things about Square D breakers is that most have terminals that allow them to be legally double tapped.

It's likely that there are at least two circuits that would never come close to requiring 20 amps each, so 20 amps total for both would be fine. You could remove a single pole breaker for one of those circuits and move its wire to the second tap position of another breaker, thus freeing up a slot for the new double pole breaker. The only downside would be that a single breaker would now control both of those circuits instead of them being controlled individually. (If you wanted to retain separate control of the circuits, you could ignore double tapping and instead use a new tandem breaker as the above quote suggests.)

For example: You could remove #23 and move its wire as a second tap on #21. Then, move #25 to vacated position 23 and #27 to position 25, leaving positions 27 and 29 for a double pole breaker.

 

[EdJack]

The panel should say if it allows Tandem Breakers, and if so, which slots you are allowed to put in Tandem Breakers. Sometimes only certain spaces can be Tandem. But it should say either on the label or manual for that panel. And you can't Tandem GFCI. So your "Tandem" options may be very limited.

That said, It won't be that much more work (or money) to just drop in a small Sub Panel.

My Main Panel was pretty jammed packed like yours. I was going to rearrange circuits, use Tandem Breakers, move things around, etc. But I bite the bullet and just went ahead and dropped in a small Sub Panel next to the Main Panel. I'm so glad I did, because now I have plenty of space, and have some extra room to grow.

 

[ewoodrick]

If a load calculation says it's safe to add the desired two pole breaker for a charging circuit, it may not be necessary to repurpose the dryer breaker slots or even replace two single slot breakers with a tandem breaker. One of the nice things about Square D breakers is that most have terminals that allow them to be legally double tapped.

It's likely that there are at least two circuits that would never come close to requiring 20 amps each, so 20 amps total for both would be fine. You could remove a single pole breaker for one of those circuits and move its wire to the second tap position of another breaker, thus freeing up a slot for the new double pole breaker. The only downside would be that a single breaker would now control both of those circuits instead of them being controlled individually. (If you wanted to retain separate control of the circuits, you could ignore double tapping and instead use a new tandem breaker as the above quote suggests.)

For example: You could remove #23 and move its wire as a second tap on #21. Then, move #25 to vacated position 23 and #27 to position 25, leaving positions 27 and 29 for a double pole breaker.

While they may be double tapped, I still think that the individual circuits must be rerated as a single circuit.
It's just so much easier to install a tandem breaker. No thinking required and minimal expense.

I know that I have several circuits in this house that I wish was split into 2 breakers. Very few, if any, that I'd combine.

 

[Cosmacelf]

There’s more than the usual amount of bad advice in this thread.

You have the load capacity to install a 60A circuit. The electrician will be able to use tandem breakers to free up another slot for the new breaker. I don’t see this as a complicated install wrt the breaker panel. Of course, you still have to run the wires to the Wall Connector location.

Folks here should be reminded that this person is going to hire an electrician, so hand wringing about this or that that any electrician would know isn’t really useful.

 

[Rocky_H]

It's just so much easier to install a tandem breaker. No thinking required and minimal expense.

Except that some panels just don't allow tandem breakers.

There’s more than the usual amount of bad advice in this thread. [...] The electrician will be able to use tandem breakers to free up another slot for the new breaker.

Possibly, or possibly not!

This is a Square D panel. I also have a Square D panel. My panel model specifically is not made to allow any quad or tandem breakers. They can't be used in some of those panels. So don't always make that assumption.

I know it's not ideal and kind of rigging it, but since my utility room is right next to the garage is there a long enough extension cord that I could run from that connector up into the attic and back down into my garage and use a mobile connector at that point if needed?

Don't use an extension cord for that, but this might make the installation of the line easier and cheaper if you just use most of that existing 30A circuit and wire run that already goes near your garage. You could have an electrician put in a box to attach to that and then extend the wiring to where you want it in the garage. It would still be a 30A circuit, but that's still pretty solid for at home overnight charging.

 

[Cosmacelf]

This is a Square D panel. I also have a Square D panel. My panel model specifically is not made to allow any quad or tandem breakers. They can't be used in some of those panels. So don't always make that assumption.

True ... I just assumed (bad idea!) that a 4 year old panel would allow tandem breakers. Hopefully the new home electrical contractor wasn't that cheap. At the very least, removing, or as you suggest below re-using, the 30A dryer circuit would also be easy.

Having said that, I have also seen electricians use "special" tandem breakers that fit into non-tandem breaker boxes. I make no judgements, just reporting what I've seen.

Don't use an extension cord for that, but this might make the installation of the line easier and cheaper if you just use most of that existing 30A circuit and wire run that already goes near your garage. You could have an electrician put in a box to attach to that and then extend the wiring to where you want it in the garage. It would still be a 30A circuit, but that's still pretty solid for at home overnight charging.

100% better idea over an extension cord.

 

[Stack24]

Thanks for everyones input. I was waiting for one electrical company to come back with a quote after sending pictures of the panel etc to them. I also have one more electrical company coming to do an actual site estimate tomorrow so I can get a second opinion. But I have attached their scope of work and their load assessment that could possibly help others in the future. I will keep updating.

BTW I accidentally posted in the Model 3 but I ordered a Model Y. But not sure that makes a difference and can help others.

I assume based on pictures they can tell if it's a tandem or not. I looked at the label where the cover is on but it doesn't say anything there in regards to the ability to tandem or not.

 

[Cosmacelf]

That looks like an awesome scope of work. Nice that they spec'd EMT, which is appropriate for a garage (where damage can occur). I'd go with those guys!