14-50 in a condo complex

[Beachybumm]

One other thought on my situation. If I change my breaker from 60 to 80amps, can the new subpanel disconnect support a 50a circuit instead of 30? A 50a circuit would leave only 30 Amps for my unit, BUT with the Tesla wall charger, I can change the amp usage as I deem fit. So most of the time I could run it safely at 30amps, but if I know I'm not going to be using any appliances in my house, I can kick it up to 50amps.

Is that a possibility, or will that not inspection?

 

[Dmagyar]

Obviously the OP without benefit of any formal electrical training or experience isn’t getting the answer that he wants, and isn’t getting that favorable answer at what cost he arbitrarily deems is what he has in mind...typical uniformed homeowner, who believes no one performing critical work, shouldn’t be paid accordingly...imho...
PS, it’s always amusing, hearing about outrageous cost claims from anyone who’s no idea of what’s involved, not the expertise, nor the materials necessary to perform those same tasks. Every job taken from some such a homeowner places in jeopardy any liability insurance that a licensed contractors carries. In my mind there’s a high likelihood said homeowner has either done sub standard work themselves or taken a unqualified person’s illegal bid to perform electrical work without benefit of either a contractors license, and or suitable electrical knowledge of both the NEC and the ability to perform that work safely...

 

[Beachybumm]

Obviously the OP without benefit of any formal electrical training or experience isn’t getting the answer that he wants, and isn’t getting that favorable answer at what cost he arbitrarily deems is what he has in mind...typical uniformed homeowner, who believes no one performing critical work, shouldn’t be paid accordingly...imho...
PS, it’s always amusing, hearing about outrageous cost claims from anyone who’s no idea of what’s involved, not the expertise, nor the materials necessary to perform those same tasks. Every job taken from some such a homeowner places in jeopardy any liability insurance that a licensed contractors carries. In my mind there’s a high likelihood said homeowner has either done sub standard work themselves or taken a unqualified person’s illegal bid to perform electrical work without benefit of either a contractors license, and or suitable electrical knowledge of both the NEC and the ability to perform that work safely...

Wow. You're completely off base and very rude. I'm allowed to discuss different options, and no I've never done electrical work on my own. This is a forum. And the point of the forum is to have a discussion.

Instead of trolling, maybe go back to doing something productive. What are you trying to accomplish besides being a bully? Oh, nothing? I thought so. Think I remember you from 6th grade. We met after school over by the flagpole.

 

[EfficientWatts]

One other thought on my situation. If I change my breaker from 60 to 80amps, can the new subpanel disconnect support a 50a circuit instead of 30? A 50a circuit would leave only 30 Amps for my unit, BUT with the Tesla wall charger, I can change the amp usage as I deem fit. So most of the time I could run it safely at 30amps, but if I know I'm not going to be using any appliances in my house, I can kick it up to 50amps.

Is that a possibility, or will that not inspection?

You're going to have to do a load calculation to determine if that scenario will pass inspection as we cannot determine that. Ask an electrician to do both scenarios.

I tried looking at the picture of your panel but some of the labels are missing so I have no idea what they're hooked up to. Disclaimer: i did pull a load calculator and guesstimated based on the breaker sizes and a random standard condo size, and it looks like a charger hooked up to 14-30 or hardwired equivalent may fit w/80A service but a 14-50 or equivalent hardwire may not, but I am not an electrician so I could be wrong.

 

[Beachybumm]

You're going to have to do a load calculation to determine if that scenario will pass inspection as we cannot determine that. Ask an electrician to do both scenarios.

I tried looking at the picture of your panel but some of the labels are missing so I have no idea what they're hooked up to. Disclaimer: i did pull a load calculator and guesstimated based on the breaker sizes and a random standard condo size, and it looks like a charger hooked up to 14-30 or hardwired equivalent may fit w/80A service but a 14-50 or equivalent hardwire may not, but I am not an electrician so I could be wrong.

You're probably right.

I'm debating whether to get the wall charger VS the plug since the wall charger can be powered to a lower amperage. In LA, the Tesla wall charger is free because of a $500 rebate. But I'm guessing the installation of a Tesla charger is more expensive than just 14-50 - though I'm not sure why, because the wiring to get to my spot would be exactly the same.

 

[Rocky_H]

One other thought on my situation. If I change my breaker from 60 to 80amps, can the new subpanel disconnect support a 50a circuit instead of 30? A 50a circuit would leave only 30 Amps for my unit,

I highly doubt that would fit and pass any kind of load calculations. I'll bet you were already pretty tight fitting everything in your unit with the existing 60A supply. Now you think you can do that within 30A?!

BUT with the Tesla wall charger, I can change the amp usage as I deem fit. So most of the time I could run it safely at 30amps, but if I know I'm not going to be using any appliances in my house, I can kick it up to 50amps.

You have to have an installation that will comply with code and pass inspection, though, and that can't rely on, "Oh, I'll just remember to turn it down if there's a problem."

Is that a possibility, or will that not inspection?

Probably wouldn't.

But now here's the answer to the question you're just not asking:
"Do I need more than a 30A circuit?"
NO! I don't get why you are pushing so extremely hard for a 50A circuit (which almost certainly can't happen) in a situation that is already scraping by to get the least little thing you can get. Have you actually thought about how much charging you get from a 30A circuit? The Model 3 gets about 22 miles per hour recharged from a 30A connection, so you can get 220 miles refilled in 10 hours overnight. That seems very sufficient for almost anyone, and with your low capacity situation, you should be very glad to get even that.

 

[Dmagyar]

Wow. You're completely off base and very rude. I'm allowed to discuss different options, and no I've never done electrical work on my own. This is a forum. And the point of the forum is to have a discussion.

Instead of trolling, maybe go back to doing something productive. What are you trying to accomplish besides being a bully? Oh, nothing? I thought so. Think I remember you from 6th grade. We met after school over by the flagpole.

Listen, during my career as an NECA Electrical contractor I've met plenty of homeowners with very similar outlooks as yours. That you deem my comments rude is immaterial. You've been presented with some quotes to have the work done. Pick the one that most pleases you, and stop asking for remote diagnosis of your problem without all the necessary information, all from people who may have little to no formal electrical training or experience. Have the work done to the NEC code by a reputable electrical contractor and get on with your life...imho if discussions are permitted.

 

[Rocky_H]

Aside from his rude accusations and assumptions, I will support that he's got a good point. You've got quotes for two good methods to solve this (DCC-9 in your existing 60A or upping the service to 80A). Either way, it's involved electrical work, which isn't cheap. But you seem to keep trying to push for more outlandish and unlikely things, like you can find a loophole or something. I think it is time to just pick one of those two recommended options and go with it.

It's just an unfortunate situation that you're stick in a tight supply kind of building, so the solutions you can get are just not going to be as high power or as cheap as you would prefer them to be.

 

[jawnly211]

So what happened?

 

[MikeHolliday]

Many people do not understand that it is not just a breaker or simple fix. I can tell you for a fact that if you have a 80amp main service there is no way in hell that a 14-50 or a Tesla Wall Connector can be installed without upgrading an electrical panel.

As an example: Central Air has a minimum of 30 amps, your electric dryer is 30 amps, your electic stove is 40 amps. But in my area to install a new Main Panel runs $1,300 and up depending on the the size. Then if the connection is in the same area an additional $200 to $400. Simply adding a larger breaker means that when you to much current through your house wiring you would have a fire due to the resistance in the undersized wiring. and no adding a Sub-Panel does not solve this issue. The Sub-Panel must draw the 50 or 60 amps from the Main Panel

240 volt wiring is not the job of a novice...

 

[Watts_Up]

Many people do not understand that it is not just a breaker or simple fix.
I can tell you for a fact that if you have a 80amp main service there is no way in hell
that a 14-50 or a Tesla Wall Connector can be installed without upgrading an electrical panel.

As an example: Central Air has a minimum of 30 amps, your electric dryer is 30 amps, your electic stove is 40 amps. But in my area to install a new Main Panel runs $1,300 and up depending on the the size. Then if the connection is in the same area an additional $200 to $400. Simply adding a larger breaker means that when you to much current through your house wiring you would have a fire due to the resistance in the undersized wiring. and no adding a Sub-Panel does not solve this issue. The Sub-Panel must draw the 50 or 60 amps from the Main Panel

240 volt wiring is not the job of a novice...

Why installing a 14-50 plug forcing you to upgrade your panel to have a 50 A circuit breaker, especially when using an UMC limited to 32 A?

In the case of the OP @Beachybumm the main circuit has a 60 A circuit breaker, in this case a 14-30 plug (providing 28 A nominal)
should be sufficient for an overnight charging (about 22 miles an hour or 220 miles after 10 hours).

Even to be safe, a 6-20 plug (16 A nominal) providing 15 miles an hour (or 150 miles after 10 hours) would be certainly sufficient for a daily commute.

 

[Watts_Up]

I'm still not clear on why I'd need to upgrade anything.
If the main breaker is able to power 15 units, plus a condo security system, plus garage lights,
then it seems that it should be able to supply an EV charger.
And I guess I don't understand why my unit's box can't just have an additional circuit added
rather than going from the main box.
If that main box can power it, why can't I just route extra power to my panel?

@Beachybumm this thread is a little bit old, so I wonder if you have been able to install a plug?

From what I understand, if your meter and main circuit breaker are located in the garage near your car,
you should install a connection box just after your main circuit breaker to branch out a line going to your plug.
You will need to use a additional circuit breaker for this EV plug.

 

[Rocky_H]

Many people do not understand that it is not just a breaker or simple fix. I can tell you for a fact that if you have a 80amp main service there is no way in hell that a 14-50 or a Tesla Wall Connector can be installed without upgrading an electrical panel.

I'll clarify this, so you're not misinforming people:
The fact that it's a wall connector does not dictate that it must use a high amp circuit. That's actually one of the really nice things about Tesla's wall connectors is how flexible they are in various installation conditions. They can go as low as a 15A circuit, so that's something that may be possible within very limited supply systems like this.

 

[MikeHolliday]

I'll clarify this, so you're not misinforming people:
The fact that it's a wall connector does not dictate that it must use a high amp circuit. That's actually one of the really nice things about Tesla's wall connectors is how flexible they are in various installation conditions. They can go as low as a 15A circuit, so that's something that may be possible within very limited supply systems like this.

Why purchase a Tesla Wall Connector for a 15A circuit. You would better off to just using the cable that comes with the Car. The Nema 16-20 is 208 or 240 volts (Primarily 240 volts), 240 volts at 20 Amps requires a 2 Pole 20 Amp breakers. In this individuals situation a Nema 16-20 pulls 20 Amps x 2 circuits for a total load of 40 Amps. He cannot add two 20 Amp Circuits to a house with an 80 amp Service.

I know that this is an old thread, but people need to know what is safe and what is outright dangerous...

 

[Dmagyar]

@Beachybumm this thread is a little bit old, so I wonder if you have been able to install a plug?

From what I understand, if your meter and main circuit breaker are located in the garage near your car,
you should install a connection box just after your main circuit breaker to branch out a line going to your plug.
You will need to use a additional circuit breaker for this EV plug.

Curious about what background, certifications, professional training, or completed apprenticeships you’re basing your “from what I’m understanding statement” with...? Reason I’m asking is, any Electrical work requires education, training and the application of those learned premises, and national Electrical rules in the form of the NEC. Without adherence to those, your recommendation may be at best, incorrect, and at worse illegal, and or unsafe and in direct conflict with the NEC which is the minimum standard for electrical installations throughout the US. As a retired NECA Electrical Contractor, I take issue with people without standing recommending electrical installation they possibly may not understand the first thing about what they are suggesting...Akin to basing your proposed electrical work on the questionable information supplied via any associate working at HD...

 

[Rocky_H]

Wow.

I know that this is an old thread, but people need to know what is safe and what is outright dangerous...

Yes they do, which is why I am needing to correct so much stuff from you.

In this individuals situation a Nema 16-20 pulls 20 Amps x 2 circuits for a total load of 40 Amps. He cannot add two 20 Amp Circuits to a house with an 80 amp Service.

That is not in the slightest how that works at all!

A 120V 20 amp circuit pulls 20 amps.
A 240V 20 amp circuit pulls 20 amps.
It does not double the amps because of the voltage being doubled. You use a 2-pole circuit breaker instead of a single pole breaker, but it is still just the named amount of amps flowing in that circuit. So yes, this could be a possibility to fit 15 or 20 amps in a house service that is only 60 or 80 amps.

Why purchase a Tesla Wall Connector for a 15A circuit? You would better off to just using the cable that comes with the Car.

There could be a few reasons. One of the most common is for outdoor installs. The wall connector is sealed up better for exposure to rain, versus outdoor outlets and plugging and unplugging a mobile charge cable for daily use. And when the car isn't plugged in, most people wouldn't like to leave a mobile charge cable sitting out there to risk being stolen.

And this would be unlikely because it's kind of desperate on a low power circuit, but if you have to share two wall connectors.

 

[MikeHolliday]

A long day and tired... A Nema 16-20 requires 2 - 20 amp 120 volt circuits - But I am willing to bet that if the house has an Oven, Hot Water Tank, Air Conditioner and Dryer at 240 volts that there is any possible way that there is additional space (power wise - there maybe physical slots which mean nothing to total load).

Here is the Electrical Code:
624.14 Electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered to be continuous loads. Where an automatic load management system is used, the maximum electric vehicle supply equipment load on a service or feeder shall be the maximum load permitted by the automatic load management system.

The definition of a Continuous Load is any load that is expected to continue 3 hours or more...

So, even though you can lower the current draw of a Tesla Wall Conector, you must do all calculations based on its maximum output.
With Continuous Load the Breakers must be 125% of the maximum load.

With an Electrical Car Charger as a example a 15 Amp draw would require a 20 Amp Circui, etc...

 

[Rocky_H]

The Nema 16-20 is

A Nema 16-20 requires

You keep saying this. There is no "16-20". We have been talking about a 6-20.

A Nema 16-20 requires 2 - 20 amp 120 volt circuits

No, it really isn't. The word "circuit" has its roots from the same source as "circle" for good reason. It is one complete loop. It is one circuit, one loop. You connect the breaker on different places on the panel so that it gets a higher voltage potential, but it is still just one loop of wiring on that circuit, and it uses the amount of current that it says--not double.

But I am willing to bet that if the house has an Oven, Hot Water Tank, Air Conditioner and Dryer at 240 volts that there is any possible way that there is additional space (power wise - there maybe physical slots which mean nothing to total load).

Yeah, we already covered all of this by page 2. Load calculation already showed that he only had 10A to spare, so he needs to use the DCC-9 to manage the load.

Here is the Electrical Code:
624.14 Electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered to be continuous loads. Where an automatic load management system is used, the maximum electric vehicle supply equipment load on a service or feeder shall be the maximum load permitted by the automatic load management system.

The definition of a Continuous Load is any load that is expected to continue 3 hours or more...

Yes, I am very well aware of that section of code. And further, that in the newer section 625, which was added in NEC 2017, that it just defines ALL EV charging as continuous loads, regardless.

So, even though you can lower the current draw of a Tesla Wall Conector, you must do all calculations based on its maximum output.
With Continuous Load the Breakers must be 125% of the maximum load.

No, that is not what that means at all. This isn't about "turning it down a little" from how it's installed. That is an internal configuration switch which is set to define the load of the appliance. You don't have to treat the wall connectors as always 100A circuits or 60A circuits because that was what they are built to be capable of. If you are putting it on a 40A circuit and configuring it to BE a 40A circuit device, then that is what you use for the load calculation. It's a 32A continuous, requiring a 40A circuit.

With an Electrical Car Charger as a example a 15 Amp draw would require a 20 Amp Circui, etc...

Yeah, all EVSEs are already built to comply with that type of limitation all the time. People just need to make sure they are clear about what they are reading to know what the current number is referring to. The device may be talking about either what current it supplies or what level of circuit it is supposed to be installed on, and obviously those numbers will be different.

 

[Watts_Up]

Hi,

I live in a condo complex where each unit has its own circuit breaker and meter. When I look in the electrical room, I see a switch sticking out of a box with the number "60" on it. I assume this means I have a 60 amp breaker. If I want to install a Tesla wall charger or a 14-50 plug, do I need an electrician to add anything beyond this 60 amp switch? As you can tell, I don't really understand how home circuits work, but I assume some of that 60amps still needs to power my house. And if the Tesla charger takes 60amps, then wouldn't there be no power left to run my home electricity?

Sorry for the newb question, just want to make sure an electrician doesn't rip me off.

@Beachybumm this thread is a little bit old, so I wonder if you have been able to install a plug?

From what I understand, if your meter and main circuit breaker are located in the garage near your car,
you should install a connection box just after your main circuit breaker to branch out a line going to your plug.
You will need to use a additional circuit breaker for this EV plug.

 

[MikeHolliday]

Cool device!!