17.17.4

[_jal_]

I read an AP1 post that was written by some guy who is a pilot. I don't remember all the details, but he said when pilots use autopilots in planes that they keep their hands on the controls. So, it was his recommendation that drivers keep their hands on the wheel until they get used to using AP. I just rest my hand on the wheel without actually steering. It makes it a lot easier to interpret what AP is doing and know when to take over. That being said, I still get the nag screen because I will start talking with my hands while on the phone or with a passenger without realizing that I'm no longer holding the wheel.

Just resting your hand on the wheel makes it a lot easier to interpret what's happening and take control if needed than trying to watch the road and the wheel at the same time. I drive about 50 miles a day; half on interstate and the other half local roads.

I probably put 40 miles on AP and disengage maybe 4 times a day due to steering errors. Of course I'm not counting disengagements to change lanes on local roads, stop signs, etc.

 

[Electroman]

While using AP this morning, my car felt obligated to follow the older, covered-up lane lines as opposed to the newer, very clear lane lines.

and the reason is quite clear. As you can see the new lanes shift abruptly, and quite rightly AP ignores a lane that shifts abruptly.

 

[Sawyer8888]

and the reason is quite clear. As you can see the new lanes shift abruptly, and quite rightly AP ignores a lane that shifts abruptly.

I'll have to disagree with you here. The new lane lines do not shift abruptly. The new lines make for a gradual left curve that transition nicely from the old lines. Neither the new nor the old lines appear to be over overly abrupt in their transition.

Further, why would the system decide that it is best to cut off and possibly crash into the vehicle immediately to the right when there is plenty of room on the left?

 

[Joe F]

Further, why would the system decide that it is best to cut off and possibly crash into the vehicle immediately to the right when there is plenty of room on the left?

Good question. You no doubt filed a bug report seconds later, right?

Since there have been many reports that AP does not handle confusing (to AP) lines in construction zones, one would be wise to disengage, or at least have a firmer grip on the wheel, as both actions negate the need for cat like reflexes.

Don't worry; That knowledge comes with age.

 

[chillaban]

I'll have to disagree with you here. The new lane lines do not shift abruptly. The new lines make for a gradual left curve that transition nicely from the old lines. Neither the new nor the old lines appear to be over overly abrupt in their transition.

Further, why would the system decide that it is best to cut off and possibly crash into the vehicle immediately to the right when there is plenty of room on the left?

Without a doubt the system did not do the right thing here. I think what others are attempting to communicate in perhaps an ineffective way is that both AP1 and AP2 currently struggle with situations like this, where there's two sets of conflicting lane lines but a human can easily distinguish which makes more sense. This has resulted in a widely publicized AP1 crash, and I've seen AP2 have a tendency to do this as well.

But at any rate, I would highly recommend reporting this to Tesla if you haven't already. Near misses tend to be taken serious and hopefully your part helps accelerate and prioritize addressing this issue in AP2.

 

[Electroman]

Further, why would the system decide that it is best to cut off and possibly crash into the vehicle immediately to the right when there is plenty of room on the left?

Maybe it doesn't like you and wanted to kill you? Did you beat the car this morning ?

But seriously let's see what the camera and computer sees. Imagine for an instant that the new lines and the old lines are equally bright or equally faded. Which one would a new person, who has never been on that road, take ?

The computer sees two lines, one going straight and one shifting to the left that looks almost similar to an exit. The car took the path that goes straight - much like any new person who has a vision no more than 20 feet would do.

Your decision on which line to follow is primarily based on the brightness of the line. Computer cannot and should not make that judgement on a highway. It should make as little abrupt changes as possible when going at freeway speeds. Otherwise you will be chasing every tire marks and and asphalt marks.

 

[mitchellh3]

Mitchellh3, was there something that indicated the bandwidth you saw (168kbps) was upload? I was just looking at your picture and didn't see up/down specified individually. Also, be aware that typical consumer tools are sometimes not entirely accurate. So you may want to get more samples, especially with the low numbers you saw there.

Took me awhile to check more deeply.

I have more data points over a longer period of time now. My car consistently uploads at ~10 Mbps (pure upload, not including download) for minutes after I park the car in the garage after a decent amount of driving (~50 miles on/off highway). When I drive for a shorter period of time, the upload is shorter.

I've been driving a consistently similar route daily and the upload is about the same. So... if it is video clips it doesn't seem to care I'm driving the same places.

I don't have the equipment/software in place to do a deeper flow analysis but I can't imagine what else 10 Mbps upload for that long would be except for video data.

 

[Sawyer8888]

Maybe it doesn't like you and wanted to kill you? Did you beat the car this morning ?

But seriously let's see what the camera and computer sees. Imagine for an instant that the new lines and the old lines are equally bright or equally faded. Which one would a new person, who has never been on that road, take ?

The computer sees two lines, one going straight and one shifting to the left that looks almost similar to an exit. The car took the path that goes straight - much like any new person who has a vision no more than 20 feet would do.

Your decision on which line to follow is primarily based on the brightness of the line. Computer cannot and should not make that judgement on a highway. It should make as little abrupt changes as possible when going at freeway speeds. Otherwise you will be chasing every tire marks and and asphalt marks.

I'll have to disagree here as well. Despite what is going on with the lines on the road, the car can clearly detect an object to my right and yet it turns into that potential hazard?

Any rational human would have been able to correctly determine that despite the mutiple lane lines, it would be best to stay left because it is known that a vehicle is directly to the right and the lead car is safely traveling on the left side of the roadway directly in front.

The ability of the various sensors of the car to interact and determine the best maneuver appears to be limited at best.

I have just submitted the video to Tesla for their review using their standard support email. I know there's a way to send a bug report using the buttons on the steering wheel, however that process escapes me and I'd rather just take care of that after I park.

 

[BestRadar]

While using AP this morning, my car felt obligated to follow the older, covered-up lane lines as opposed to the newer, very clear lane lines. As a result, I almost side-swiped the truck on my right. Despite my display indicating yellow from the passenger-side sensors for being very close to an object, there was no side collision warning and I was forced to disengage AP and pull the wheel back to my lane. I am surpised that there are not more news stories about accidents resulting from Tesla's AP. Looking forward to the next software update.

For reasons like this is why I doubt FSD will ever become a reality.

 

[Tangible]

For reasons like this is why I doubt FSD will ever become a reality.

Predictions like that have a tendency to come back and haunt you.

I wouldn't draw any lessons from AP2. It was rushed into production many months late to mitigate the legal and reputational effects of shipping HW2 hardware without functioning software starting last December. That's an implementation problem, and says nothing about the potential for self-driving.

In the general case, it appears to me that Tesla has the most advanced AP in any production car mostly because they choose to put half-baked software into production where other manufacturers are more conservative. They know their market: People who are willing to be pioneers in driving EVs probably have high tolerance for risk and willingness to endure inconvenience in return for novelty.

That said, if your pessimism about FSD ever becoming a reality refers to Tesla HW2 cars I think you're probably right. I certainly wouldn't pay now for that feature; the money is almost certainly wasted.

 

[Electroman]

Despite what is going on with the lines on the road, the car can clearly detect an object to my right and yet it turns into that potential hazard?

I watched your video again. NO, it did not turn into that hazard. Rather the car was following the lane perfectly - what it thought was the correct lane - going in a straight path. The vehicle to the right was the one turned left into your path, according to the car.

You are conflating two different issues:

- Which lane did your car assume was the right one?
- avoiding collisions with other vehicles.

On the first issue, the car took the path, which it assumed was the right one. Your brain might tell you to follow the new bright line, because you from quite far observed the bright shifting lines for all three lanes. But for the car the two lines are confusing and so it took the one that went straight.

On the collision, it is the other car that came close to you, if you accept that the car did the right thing by continuing straight.[/QUOTE]

 

[gearchruncher]

I read an AP1 post that was written by some guy who is a pilot. I don't remember all the details, but he said when pilots use autopilots in planes that they keep their hands on the controls.

As someone who designs autopilots for planes, uses autopilots, and watches other people use autopilots..

Nobody keeps their hands on the controls unless you are in the takeoff or landing phase. The boring hours in-between are totally hands off.

 

[_jal_]

As someone who designs autopilots for planes, uses autopilots, and watches other people use autopilots..

Nobody keeps their hands on the controls unless you are in the takeoff or landing phase. The boring hours in-between are totally hands off.

I'm wrong then.

 

[_jal_]

FWIW this is the post. I found it helpful in my use of autopilot even though it is old

A flight instructor teaches Tesla Autopilot

 

[xyeahtony]

I read an AP1 post that was written by some guy who is a pilot. I don't remember all the details, but he said when pilots use autopilots in planes that they keep their hands on the controls. So, it was his recommendation that drivers keep their hands on the wheel until they get used to using AP. I just rest my hand on the wheel without actually steering. It makes it a lot easier to interpret what AP is doing and know when to take over. That being said, I still get the nag screen because I will start talking with my hands while on the phone or with a passenger without realizing that I'm no longer holding the wheel.

I've flown on multiple boeing aircraft. i know if the system does not detect pilot input within a timeframe i forget an alarm in the cockpit sounds (apparently to wake up any pilots that may have fallen asleep). It's a pretty loud alarm too.

 

[gearchruncher]

I've flown on multiple boeing aircraft. i know if the system does not detect pilot input within a timeframe i forget an alarm in the cockpit sounds

Can you find any reference to this? I know a lot of airline pilots and have never heard of this. I know for a fact that on small aircraft and business jets that can hold 20 people this is not true.

 

[BlindBanana]

I know there's a way to send a bug report using the buttons on the steering wheel, however that process escapes me and I'd rather just take care of that after I park.

I would appreciate it if someone could share instructions on how to send a bug report via the buttons on the steering wheel.

 

[Sawyer8888]

I would appreciate it if someone could share instructions on how to send a bug report via the buttons on the steering wheel.

Here is some information on the topic:

Way to report bugs without speech recognition | Tesla

I seem to remember Tesla previously advising me to press steering wheel buttons that allowed a screenshot to be taken, then I'd use the voice command to report a perceived bug, in my case it was something with Slacker Radio. It appears you can just use the voice command to report a bug. Not sure it's actually reviewed unless you call or email to request that they check into it.

 

[BAven8068]

I've flown on multiple boeing aircraft. i know if the system does not detect pilot input within a timeframe i forget an alarm in the cockpit sounds (apparently to wake up any pilots that may have fallen asleep). It's a pretty loud alarm too.

Can you find any reference to this? I know a lot of airline pilots and have never heard of this. I know for a fact that on small aircraft and business jets that can hold 20 people this is not true.

I am an airline pilot and have heard people speak of this, but to my knowledge there is no such thing. Not to say it's not an option to be added to certain aircraft, but I have flown in the cockpit of just about every major aircraft type and have never seen this.

There are times you go multiple hours without having any input to the control systems on an aircraft. This alarm system would become extremely annoying and I can say with certainty it would be hated by all pilots.

 

[Joe F]

I would appreciate it if someone could share instructions on how to send a bug report via the buttons on the steering wheel.

Page 39 of the (outdated) model S owners manual:

"Note: You can also use voice commands to
provide feedback to Tesla. Say "Note",
"Report", "Bug note", or "Bug report" followed
by your brief comments. Model S takes a
snapshot of its systems, including screen
captures of the touchscreen and instrument
panel. Tesla periodically reviews these notes
and uses them to continue improving Model S."​