1st Snow day for my Model 3 SR+ and for the season - lost control and bumped into divider

[coleAK]

I disagree with this sentiment. I've seen many a time where it was clear that the car was modulating regen in slippery conditions. I wouldn't really want to depend on it to do the job perfectly, but I've intentionally induced regen when it was clear there wasn't anywhere near enough traction for it, and the green bar danced all around as the car adjusted regen but didn't go notably out of control. I guess its possible that the regen was just dropping off as the wheels were stopping and therefore stopped providing power back to the battery, but that wouldn't explain it not going out of control.

That said, if its notably slippery, I wouldn't hesitate to set regen to low for the trip. The risk is too high to save a buck or two on regen.

I set regen to low 2 weeks ago when I put my winter tires on and will leave it that way until I take them off. Did the same thing last winter and it was fine. Again it’s pretty easy to get it to slide under full regen when you suddenly release the accelerator going down hill on ice even on my Hakka 9’s.

It does modulate some? Possibly but really slow and takes a while. When I tried it last winter, again as a test, it was more like: regen put it in a slide then if I allowed it to continue to slide regen would ease off, then I may or may not regain traction. I think the take home point is if at all possible don’t go into a slide and if it does Regen dosn’t give the same amount of control as ABS.

And yes the cameras are useless when the roads are completely covered in snow/ice/winter.

 

[dhanson865]

Thank you all for your inputs, suggestions and sharing your experience.

I always use two sets (Winter/Summer) on my other cars , being we are in October haven't swapped tries.
Once i get back my Tesla from body shop (hopefully in 6 weeks) will put winter tires on it.

I'd like to know what your "summer" OEM tires were at the time of the accident?

Michelin Pilot Sport 4S? Michelin Primacy MXM4? Continental ProContact RX?

Either way you might want to swap your "summer" tire to a high traction all season like Michelin Cross Climate+ or Michelin Pilot Sport AS 3+.

If you don't already have 18" wheels consider switching to them to gain access to the Michelin Cross Climate+ in a size that fits the model 3.

 

[Ugene]

I think the questions to discuss are:
- how controllable (with brakes/regen/accelerator) the car is when it looses traction, and
- how fast the car looses traction
compared to other similarly priced or cheaper cars in the same class with similar tires in similar situation.
Saying that this is driver's responsibility to choose tires and speed to never loose traction is not productive, IMHO.
It does not matter whether it applies to summer or winter driving; it's just in winter one does not have to push the car as hard or as fast to loose traction.

I drove my 3P through last winter, mostly hitting snow when driving to local ski resorts (I ski 30-40 day/season), and used exactly same tires in winter and in summer as on the Audi S4 I drove before and that I still have in the family. Tesla has bigger wheels than the Audi (20" vs 18") but everything else is very similar. I found Tesla could find amazing traction slowly trying to get up a steep hill in very slippery conditions, a hill where Audi would struggle to get going. On the other hand, I had to concur with other posters on this forum last winter stating that their Teslas lost traction where their Audis or Subarus would not and where other cars on the same stretch of the road at the same time didn't struggle with traction. All such discussion threads were heavily trolled by people recommending to get better tires, to drive more defensively, and to educate on winter driving. So, I am a bit hesitant to post.
When accelerating on slippery roads I felt Tesla would stop tracking considerably sooner than the Audi. Not in all conditions but some of the usual conditions on roads to ski resorts in Seattle area. That rear bias could be the cause, I can't say with confidence. When braking (including regen) I felt that Tesla does not track as well as the Audi or the Subaru I had before in slippery conditions. I do use Tesla in winter but it is just not as playful and reliable friend in the snow while it is my best and most exciting car in other conditions. Let's say when getting from a rest area or a gas station back to a snowy road with a foot of soft snow on the side that cars push aside, I wait for a way bigger gap in the traffic to enter when driving Tesla than when driving the Audi.

And this is to the person who stated that Tesla modulates braking on regen. I slid a long downhill turn - probably 500 ft - on a wet road on regen in Track mode. It was an empty stretch of the road and it was not my intent to slide, but I managed to upset the traction coming out of the previous turn being at the limit and just went through the whole turn sliding under regen and only controlling the car with steering. I had enough time to observe the car to state that braking power was not modulated in any way. You can say I suck for driving like that but my observation still holds.

 

[mswlogo]

I think the questions to discuss are:
- how controllable (with brakes/regen/accelerator) the car is when it looses traction, and
- how fast the car looses traction
compared to other similarly priced or cheaper cars in the same class with similar tires in similar situation.
Saying that this is driver's responsibility to choose tires and speed to never loose traction is not productive, IMHO.
It does not matter whether it applies to summer or winter driving; it's just in winter one does not have to push the car as hard or as fast to loose traction.

I drove my 3P through last winter, mostly hitting snow when driving to local ski resorts (I ski 30-40 day/season), and used exactly same tires in winter and in summer as on the Audi S4 I drove before and that I still have in the family. Tesla has bigger wheels than the Audi (20" vs 18") but everything else is very similar. I found Tesla could find amazing traction slowly trying to get up a steep hill in very slippery conditions, a hill where Audi would struggle to get going. On the other hand, I had to concur with other posters on this forum last winter stating that their Teslas lost traction where their Audis or Subarus would not and where other cars on the same stretch of the road at the same time didn't struggle with traction. All such discussion threads were heavily trolled by people recommending to get better tires, to drive more defensively, and to educate on winter driving. So, I am a bit hesitant to post.
When accelerating on slippery roads I felt Tesla would stop tracking considerably sooner than the Audi. Not in all conditions but some of the usual conditions on roads to ski resorts in Seattle area. That rear bias could be the cause, I can't say with confidence. When braking (including regen) I felt that Tesla does not track as well as the Audi or the Subaru I had before in slippery conditions. I do use Tesla in winter but it is just not as playful and reliable friend in the snow while it is my best and most exciting car in other conditions. Let's say when getting from a rest area or a gas station back to a snowy road with a foot of soft snow on the side that cars push aside, I wait for a way bigger gap in the traffic to enter when driving Tesla than when driving the Audi.

And this is to the person who stated that Tesla modulates braking on regen. I slid a long downhill turn - probably 500 ft - on a wet road on regen in Track mode. It was an empty stretch of the road and it was not my intent to slide, but I managed to upset the traction coming out of the previous turn being at the limit and just went through the whole turn sliding under regen and only controlling the car with steering. I had enough time to observe the car to state that braking power was not modulated in any way. You can say I suck for driving like that but my observation still holds.

I felt my AWD Jeep Summit did better in snow than the AWD Model 3.
I think it is the well known Rear Bias on the Model 3. It can cause the rear to break lose unexpectedly.
I avoided the Model 3 (or any of our cars) on highway slick conditions. But on steep slick hills you could feel the rear slip before the front would lend a hand. It should have a "snow mode", with the understanding it might be less efficient.

 

[Ugene]

On the other hand, on another slippery surface - gravel - which I drove on probably total of at least 30 miles this fall, I was very happy with the level of speed I could maintain and how controllable the Tesla was. Compared well to my distant memory of how my Audi S4 handled on similar surface (also great of course). That was after I upgraded suspension on my 3P, though.

 

[Lectric_Agent]

Hello Tesla owners and Fans,

Few months back I got my new Tesla Model 3 SR+, like many enjoyed everyday and every minute driving it until today.
Today we got our 1st snow of the season here in Denver and today is my 1st snow day for my car.

Morning commute to work was really bad with icy conditions. I live in Boulder and work in Denver (about 20 mile on highway), initially for few miles in neighborhood it was really bad to drive as car was not getting enough traction but later once i got on to highway it was better.

At 80% of my commute I was driving around 40 mph (speed limit was 55 mph) suddenly my car lost traction & controlled dragged towards one side of highway and got to hit the divider . it got banged both front side and rear side (driver side), completely damaged below head light in front and rear wheel rim is broken with bend, seems like suspension is damaged.

Now i after this incident i am really worried and lost the confident about this car managing in snow and icy conditions, how to drive this car in Snowing city, I agree i wont go up into mountains much but still in foothills we get lot of snow. Need you guys suggestion with next options, do i need to trade this car to AWD or checking with Tesla to see if something wrong with traction system, Definitely will go with winter tires.

Thought to share my story here and looking forwarded to hear suggestion on how to manage in snow city with SR+

So just to be clear- you drove it on the streets and it was sliding all over the place, so you thought “hey maybe if I take it on the hwy it will have more grip”???

 

[user212_nr]

The secret is to power through with corrective steering...avoid the brakes. YMMV

Advice is not applicable to Tesla w/ one-pedal driving. You have to guess where the neutral zone is. For such a rare event, you/I probably will not remember or be able.

You can turn down the regen braking for winter also.

 

[mswlogo]

I will be sticking with the stock MXM4's for a New England Winter with the AWD model and do have concerns about that but consider myself experienced driving in bad winter conditions.

That’s a really bad idea. Did you read the thread? Yeah, you should have concerns. The primacy’s are especially bad in snow.

 

[mreynolds767]

That’s a really bad idea. Did you read the thread? Yeah, you should have concerns. The primacy’s are especially bad in snow.

Yes read the thread.
Just don't have the budget for snow tires right now and never had them before.

If it seems bad after a storm or two, I will fit them into the budget of course. The regen causing slippage as I let off the gas scares me a bit as that is new to me.. Plan on changing regen to low and acceleration to chill on bad days thanks to forum advise.
Lived my entire driving life in this region, never once owned snow tires. Not bragging about that, just bringing it up that it has not been ever something I thought about before.
Also never owned a rear biased car in MA.
Exclusively driven AWD SUV's for the past 15+ years with all seasons and driven in some really bad weather without ever an issue (Acura's and Ford's)
Many owners claim the 3 AWD even with the stock tires does similar to most AWD SUV's in the snow, at least that is what I read before I bought the car.
Wife owned a manual 3 series all wheel drive for a while and am experienced with driving that, also on all seasons was not as good as the SUV's but managed through the winters without incident. I am thinking the 3 AWD would not be worse than that car was. She has an X3 now and that does great in the snow with all seasons.
Now if it is really bad out I don't drive and can work from home on those occasions which I did not have the ability to do before.
Not saying I am immune to it and I try to be a slower and more careful driver when it gets bad out.
I know my ability to brake is limited with all season tires and really liked having snow tires when renting cars in winter in Europe and Artic regions so recognize the benefits.
My driveway is a steep incline with curves so usually my biggest winter challenge. Have lost grip and slid down it numerous times over the years which is scary (house at bottom of hill so never a danger to anyone but myself and my property)
Have seen 4WD pickup / snow plows get stuck for the night on my driveway so usually end up shoveling it myself since I go through plow companies on a constant basis.

 

[mswlogo]

My driveway is a steep incline with curves so usually my biggest winter challenge. Have lost grip and slid down it numerous times over the years which is scary (house at bottom of hill so never a danger to anyone but myself and my property)
Have seen 4WD pickup / snow plows get stuck for the night on my driveway so usually end up shoveling it myself since I go through plow companies on a constant basis.

Do you hear yourself? What about your wife's danger? My wife's car gets snow tires

I never get how someone that can afford Audi's and Tesla's say's they can't afford a set of snow tires. What you are really saying is they are a waste of money.

In the end, snow tires cost very little. Because you save tread on your summer tires.
And you can often get OEM rims pretty cheap. A lot of folks sell their brand new Aero Wheels with TPMS, Rim, Cover and Tire for around $1200. You end up with a full set of extra tires to use in the future. So you essentially get the rims for free.

Between running snow tires in winter and the extract tires you'll be good on rubber for a very long time. You are just paying for it all up front.

I like to swap tires seasonally myself. Saves time and money and I can change them when it's convenient. I often change them right before the first significant snow fall.

 

[mreynolds767]

Not dismissing your advise, actually considering it for the first time.
Admittedly is my own ignorance but never even thought about getting snow tires before on our AWD cars / suv's ; was not aware people even did that outside of mountain/ski areas.
Until in the research of this Telsa was actually the first time I just started thinking about it.
Originally was considering the now no longer available LR RWD and would have added a set of snow tires with rims if I went with that option. Justified the AWD in part because it meant I would not need another set of tires.

My wife makes me move her car up the driveway when it is bad out.

 

[mswlogo]

Not dismissing your advise, actually considering it for the first time.
Admittedly is my own ignorance but never even thought about getting snow tires before on our AWD cars / suv's ; was not aware people even did that outside of mountain/ski areas.
Until in the research of this Telsa was actually the first time I just started thinking about it.
Originally was considering the now no longer available LR RWD and would have added a set of snow tires with rims if I went with that option. Justified the AWD in part because it meant I would not need another set of tires.

My wife makes me move her car up the driveway when it is bad out.

Not trying to hound you. But it's not just about "getting stuck" or sliding around. The behavior of the all seasons in cold weather degrades a lot when temperatures dip.

https://shiftintowinter.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Stopping_Tips_2016_web2.pdf

 

[coleAK]

Not dismissing your advise, actually considering it for the first time.
Admittedly is my own ignorance but never even thought about getting snow tires before on our AWD cars / suv's ; was not aware people even did that outside of mountain/ski areas.
Until in the research of this Telsa was actually the first time I just started thinking about it.
Originally was considering the now no longer available LR RWD and would have added a set of snow tires with rims if I went with that option. Justified the AWD in part because it meant I would not need another set of tires.

My wife makes me move her car up the driveway when it is bad out.

I’ll also add. I always say it’s do you want to survive or do you what to thrive? The difference is night and day, especially on ice. And Like mswLogo said long term the cost really isnt that much more since your summer tires just last much longer. I end up buying 2 sets of tires for each of our cars over 6-8 years. The other thing I always bring up is if having winter tires save you from one accident it is worth it. No add on that how long it would take to get the Tesla repaired and you could be looking at saving little to no money just in the cost of o e deductible and not having the use of your Tesla for weeks to months.

 

[dsgerbc]

Not trying to hound you. But it's not just about "getting stuck" or sliding around. The behavior of the all seasons in cold weather degrades a lot when temperatures dip.

https://shiftintowinter.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Stopping_Tips_2016_web2.pdf

That's some marketing bullshit in that link. Quality all-season tire on a dry+cold winter road is on par with performance winter tires in temps well below freezing, and trumps Ice/Snow Nordic winter tires. So, for most people not trying to push the limits, winter tires are exactly about not getting stuck or slide around. They are giving up dry winter grip in exchange for better grip on ice/snow. All the 'rubber softness' is marketing BS. Sure, it's possible to build a tire for dry winter roads. Take a slick and make it out of winter compound. There are zero tires like that on the market, what you do get is soft winter rubber + all the sipes and tread cuts to grip on ice. Those sipes and cuts are terrible for dry grip. So, please dry cautiously on your blizzaks/nokians etc on dry roads. A minivan on bald all-seasons might just outbrake you in a panic stop situation.

 

[Probllama]

That's some marketing bullshit in that link. Quality all-season tire on a dry+cold winter road is on par with performance winter tires in temps well below freezing, and trumps Ice/Snow Nordic winter tires. So, for most people not trying to push the limits, winter tires are exactly about not getting stuck or slide around. They are giving up dry winter grip in exchange for better grip on ice/snow. All the 'rubber softness' is marketing BS. Sure, it's possible to build a tire for dry winter roads. Take a slick and make it out of winter compound. There are zero tires like that on the market, what you do get is soft winter rubber + all the sipes and tread cuts to grip on ice. Those sipes and cuts are terrible for dry grip. So, please dry cautiously on your blizzaks/nokians etc on dry roads. A minivan on bald all-seasons might just outbrake you in a panic stop situation.

While I think your minivan on bald tires comparison is an exaggeration, I do believe that all-weather tires offer the best compromise between dry/not so cold conditions vs cold/snowy/slushy days. Especially here in CO where we get snow one day and 70 degree sunny day the next, all weather rubber is the way to go especially if you have awd. For example Michelin Crossclimate+ has the mountain snow flake designation and also dry handling ratings on par with best all season tires per Consumer Reports test results. Whereas the Blizzaks that I just put on my Model 3 are very loud and do negatively impact the handling/braking in dry/warm weather. I needed the hardcore Blizzaks for my fwd Mazda 3 but the awd Tesla will be perfectly fine on all weather tires...

 

[Ugene]

Those sipes and cuts are terrible for dry grip.

+1 to your post overall. I found it strange that someone can be shaming a Tesla owner who was happy with all season tires for 15 years for not spending money on winters.

To be fair, winter tires have become better all around tires than they used to be. Plus performance winter tires feel closer to good all seasons than to proper winter tires. Starting from my pre-Tesla Audi, I switched from Michelin A/S to PS summers and PA winters to get best handling in _summer_. Being able to be _slightly_ more aggressive driving on the snow was a secondary consideration in Seattle even with frequent ski trips. I continue this with my Tesla 3P. BTW, it feels like Michelin PA tires grip very well on dry when new but dry traction declines faster than in A/S series as they wear.

 

[AdamMacDon]

The most important thing you can change about a car is the tires, the second is the driver. I'm happy that I live in a part if Canada where snow happens once every 2 years, and only a few inches. Even still I'm debating a set of winter wheels for the very mild winter season. AWD has been sold as a gimmick for decades as some kind of magic bullet to make driving in low friction situations easy. Here's some simple science though, it does nothing for your braking or turning ability, the two most important controls. It will help out a ton with acceleration from a stop or up hills, but that's it. I've driven my hemi charger for years in snow, and before that a Crown Victoria V8 with RWD and no traction control. As long as I had mud and snow all seasons or winter tires I never had an issue.

The second big thing to change is the driver. Now I don't know your comfort level in snow, but practice always helps everyone. Find an empty parking lot with no curbs to hit on a snowy day and practice controlled losses of traction with your car. The easiest trick to regain control is STOP giving it the input that caused the loss of control. If you were on the throttle, SLOWLY ease off until you recover. Same for braking or turning. Practice all three types of loss of control until you're comfortable with them.

I hope the damage to your car isn't too bad and you're back on the road soon. Stay safe out there!

 

[KenC]

So just to be clear- you drove it on the streets and it was sliding all over the place, so you thought “hey maybe if I take it on the hwy it will have more grip”???

The OP never fully explained, but presumably, the surface roads are not clear due to less traffic and less likelihood of snow removal equipment, while the highway has higher likelihood of both. I figured he was driving in the groove that the other vehicles were making, and then he hooked a wheel on the slush, and it pulled him into the barrier. Happens to lots of people.

 

[mswlogo]

+1 to your post overall. I found it strange that someone can be shaming a Tesla owner who was happy with all season tires for 15 years for not spending money on winters.

To be fair, winter tires have become better all around tires than they used to be. Plus performance winter tires feel closer to good all seasons than to proper winter tires. Starting from my pre-Tesla Audi, I switched from Michelin A/S to PS summers and PA winters to get best handling in _summer_. Being able to be _slightly_ more aggressive driving on the snow was a secondary consideration in Seattle even with frequent ski trips. I continue this with my Tesla 3P. BTW, it feels like Michelin PA tires grip very well on dry when new but dry traction declines faster than in A/S series as they wear.

You can call it shaming if you want. I’m calling looking out for my fellow Tesla owner to protect his investment and his family. His reasoning for putting it off was budget and a few if explained it’s pretty cheap to rim a tire better matched to the season you are in.

The Model 3 is not the best AWD machine because of its rear bias. The Primacy’s are also worse than average. They are one of the worst rated tires on TireRack for the Model 3. There are other tires you can get away with year round. But Primacy isn’t that tire, in New England.

Read the opening post. There have been several owners that posted a similar experience.

 

[coleAK]

+1 to your post overall. I found it strange that someone can be shaming a Tesla owner who was happy with all season tires for 15 years for not spending money on winters.

To be fair, winter tires have become better all around tires than they used to be. Plus performance winter tires feel closer to good all seasons than to proper winter tires. Starting from my pre-Tesla Audi, I switched from Michelin A/S to PS summers and PA winters to get best handling in _summer_. Being able to be _slightly_ more aggressive driving on the snow was a secondary consideration in Seattle even with frequent ski trips. I continue this with my Tesla 3P. BTW, it feels like Michelin PA tires grip very well on dry when new but dry traction declines faster than in A/S series as they wear.

It’s also a public safety concern. I’ve been hit 4 times in the last 10 years. None of them had proper winter tires. At least one car ends up in the ditch in front of my house every winter, almost never have proper winter tires, almost always a Subaru.