golfnut
Member
Without looking I should have known it was filed here in CA. Welcome to America's most litigious state! 
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$2.3 billion Icy Road Regenerative Braking Lawsuit
- Thread starter Tam
- Start date
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- Tesla Inc.
If the car starts to slide and is headed for a crash you are supposed to respond by stepping on the accelerator just a little bit?
Can all of you "above average" drivers manage that?
I do not consider myself anything but an average driver.
Question: based on your two posts on this subject do you believe his suit has merit? Including the damages he is asking to receive?
He has the right to bring the case.
The judge can decide if it has merit.
My opinion is that it if the Tesla does cause the back wheels to lose traction by lifting off the accelerator, and if it does that more aggressively than other cars do then it may cause accidents.
Having the regen work only some of the time according to the state of the battery might increase the risk.
Placing the blame for almost every Tesla crash upon driver stupidity seems .................... stupid
He has the right to bring the case.
The judge can decide if it has merit.
My opinion is that it if the Tesla does cause the back wheels to lose traction by lifting off the accelerator, and if it does that more aggressively than other cars do then it may cause accidents.
Having the regen work only some of the time according to the state of the battery might increase the risk.
Placing the blame for almost every Tesla crash upon driver stupidity seems .................... stupid
Of course he has the right to bring the case. We live in a world (especially the US, doubly so in Cali.) where one can bring a suit against anyone or any entity with few exceptions.
I am not a Tesla apologist. In fact, far from it. It just appears many people need to place 'blame' on anyone but themselves if something happens instead of taking on some measure of responsibility.
The large amount he asks as compensation just smacks of 'hubris'
IMO, that is the biggest 'does not pass the smell test' to me.Obviously opinion.
"The lawsuit alleges the regenerative braking systems used in both the Model S and Model X create a risk for the vehicles to lose control in snowy conditions because the systems make the vehicles unable to coast. According to the plaintiffs, a driver is put in danger of losing control on icy roads due to the mandatory braking the vehicle imposes on the driver.
Drivers know that sharp, sudden and excessive braking or downshifting isn't a good idea on icy or snowy roads because braking can cause vehicles to shift their weight and become unbalanced. But according to the plaintiffs, Tesla has known since 2007 that the regenerative braking systems create that very danger.
In 2007, Tesla posted a message on its website that said, in part, the automaker had “developed and verified [a] safety feature” called “regen control” to limit the regenerative braking if the vehicle’s rear wheels start to slip. But according to the lawsuit, it's been 10 years and the Tesla vehicles still suffer from losing stability when the regenerative braking is engaged in snow or ice.
The Wiseman's also say the braking system has limitations, including not functioning when the vehicle’s battery is too full.
The plaintiffs say they wouldn't have bought the SUV if Tesla would have told them the regenerative braking system was allegedly defective and dangerous."
Seems like there may be a few others joining the claim.
Concern with Regenerative breaking on icy roads
Submitted by aarnold on March 2, 2016
Tesla needs to do an update to the Regenerative breaking and they need to do it now. The only option is to set it to normal or low. There needs to be an off option. If the road is icy or snowy, and you let off the accelerator to slow down or "reach" for the brake, the back wheels lock up (just like we used to do with the e-brake to lock up the wheels for fun) and cause the rear end to get loose and out of control. It is very unsafe and will cause an accident...I had to continue to put the car in neutral every time I was on I95 in VA during the 1 inch snow we had last month. It was a nightmare!!!! If there was an off option, I would have felt safe. I told my wife, she can never drive the car in snow. Not good at all...
Phaster | March 3, 2016
For the record, aarnold, I have new 19" snow tires. Although I would hardly ever use it, I don't see any reason not to give owners an "off" option. The regen already automatically turns off completely in more extreme cold. The car is already capable of this option. Sounds like an easy software change. But until you get used to it, the lack of rolling resistance is quite surprising and may be just as dangerous if you brake too late.
Drivers know that sharp, sudden and excessive braking or downshifting isn't a good idea on icy or snowy roads because braking can cause vehicles to shift their weight and become unbalanced. But according to the plaintiffs, Tesla has known since 2007 that the regenerative braking systems create that very danger.
In 2007, Tesla posted a message on its website that said, in part, the automaker had “developed and verified [a] safety feature” called “regen control” to limit the regenerative braking if the vehicle’s rear wheels start to slip. But according to the lawsuit, it's been 10 years and the Tesla vehicles still suffer from losing stability when the regenerative braking is engaged in snow or ice.
The Wiseman's also say the braking system has limitations, including not functioning when the vehicle’s battery is too full.
The plaintiffs say they wouldn't have bought the SUV if Tesla would have told them the regenerative braking system was allegedly defective and dangerous."
Seems like there may be a few others joining the claim.
Concern with Regenerative breaking on icy roads
Submitted by aarnold on March 2, 2016
Tesla needs to do an update to the Regenerative breaking and they need to do it now. The only option is to set it to normal or low. There needs to be an off option. If the road is icy or snowy, and you let off the accelerator to slow down or "reach" for the brake, the back wheels lock up (just like we used to do with the e-brake to lock up the wheels for fun) and cause the rear end to get loose and out of control. It is very unsafe and will cause an accident...I had to continue to put the car in neutral every time I was on I95 in VA during the 1 inch snow we had last month. It was a nightmare!!!! If there was an off option, I would have felt safe. I told my wife, she can never drive the car in snow. Not good at all...
Phaster | March 3, 2016
For the record, aarnold, I have new 19" snow tires. Although I would hardly ever use it, I don't see any reason not to give owners an "off" option. The regen already automatically turns off completely in more extreme cold. The car is already capable of this option. Sounds like an easy software change. But until you get used to it, the lack of rolling resistance is quite surprising and may be just as dangerous if you brake too late.
thegruf
Active Member
MikeBur
ManualPilot
It is fair to say regen braking on slippery conditions creates a scenario different to an ICE car. I believe Tesla's are the best at such situations, more so the Ds*, and a number of us have varying opinions though most agree it is "different". Understanding the characteristics of the vehicle you drive, one would hope, is the responsibility on the driver.
The varying of said characteristics, most notably the significant reduction on standard regen when at high SoC by the vehicle, is an interesting point. I initially encountered this on a regular journey crossing the cascades. My return journey starts at higher altitude on far side of mountain so had significant starting charge, and mitigate this by reducing my starting charge. I could imagine similar for skiing where people charge their EV at the summit. The only indication to the driver that this situation is occurring is a small section of the energy meter and regen being a lot lot less.
Not sure this warrants a class action, though leave that in the courts to decide.
* my belief from data logging and seeing traction control intervening at millisecond level.
The varying of said characteristics, most notably the significant reduction on standard regen when at high SoC by the vehicle, is an interesting point. I initially encountered this on a regular journey crossing the cascades. My return journey starts at higher altitude on far side of mountain so had significant starting charge, and mitigate this by reducing my starting charge. I could imagine similar for skiing where people charge their EV at the summit. The only indication to the driver that this situation is occurring is a small section of the energy meter and regen being a lot lot less.
Not sure this warrants a class action, though leave that in the courts to decide.
* my belief from data logging and seeing traction control intervening at millisecond level.
MikeBur
ManualPilot
Oh, just thought of another analogy the class action could go after: trailer brakes on trucks. No one stops you from using in slippery conditions and that isn't even mitigated by traction control
/s
/s
He has the right to bring the case.
The judge can decide if it has merit.
My opinion is that it if the Tesla does cause the back wheels to lose traction by lifting off the accelerator, and if it does that more aggressively than other cars do then it may cause accidents.
Having the regen work only some of the time according to the state of the battery might increase the risk.
Placing the blame for almost every Tesla crash upon driver stupidity seems .................... stupid
Unless the judge (or jury) is completely disassociated with automobile operation, a verdict favoring the plaintiff opens up liability not only to all vehicles capable of regen, but all vehicles with manual transmissions or automatics with locking converters when not free-wheeling.
Yeah, except, by many accounts, there are other BEVs/Rx's such as BMW i3 that have even stronger regen pull. And how will you measure a Tesla against an ICE at high rev's in second gear? My bet is that has very strong "regen" effect, likely as strong or stronger than a Tesla.
And yet... what are the odds? Betting against the driver first will get you more money, IMHO, than against ANY car manufacturer (I'm not talking legal suits, just talking relative probability on causes of accidents). Let's quote Albert Einstein: "Only two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity... and I'm not sure about the former."Placing the blame for almost every Tesla crash upon driver stupidity seems .................... stupid
"And how will you measure a Tesla against an ICE at high rev's in second gear?"
You would have to be a very silly driver to be doing that in icy conditions.
Just driving a Tesla normally seems to create difficulties according to some drivers Regenerative Braking Safety Issue
You would have to be a very silly driver to be doing that in icy conditions.
Just driving a Tesla normally seems to create difficulties according to some drivers Regenerative Braking Safety Issue
Since he had an X, it should be AWD with regen happening on all 4 wheels, not just the back wheels, so it should have stayed relatively stable, and traction control etc should have handled things, unless he was really coming in too hot and there was nothing to be done about it.
Also, some serious nonsense like insinuating that regen braking not always working due to battery SOC means it's super dangerous... if you need to brake reliably, you need to use the brakes. If you just need to slow down a little, then finding that regen isn't working and applying regular brakes normally a moment later shouldn't be any danger. If regen's inconsistency leads you to have an accident, you can only blame yourself for driving like a maniac.
Also, some serious nonsense like insinuating that regen braking not always working due to battery SOC means it's super dangerous... if you need to brake reliably, you need to use the brakes. If you just need to slow down a little, then finding that regen isn't working and applying regular brakes normally a moment later shouldn't be any danger. If regen's inconsistency leads you to have an accident, you can only blame yourself for driving like a maniac.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
Oh, yah, that's a whole new avenue! I mean, the number of weight distribution hitches I see that aren't set to properly distribute the weight! Totally should sue those hitch makers for the loss of steering control on the front wheels! Or for the guys who drive too fast without sway control.
You misunderstood... perhaps deliberately, I can't tell. I thought it was obvious I was talking about your straw man that Tesla had more regen braking force than any other car. Not specifically doing that on ice.
Re driving Teslas normally causing problems for drivers... I refer you to Mr. Einstein.
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