Good comparison by Clean Technica of Model III vs. laundry list of other cars.
Tesla Model 3 vs 22 Competitors — The Straight Specs
Tesla Model 3 vs 22 Competitors — The Straight Specs
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New rotary-fuel-cell
The Fankel-Wankel
MitchJi
Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Elon said that their mistake with the X was introducing too much new technology in the first version of the car. Now that Tesla has finally figured out how to produce the FWD's with similar efficiency to the MS I believe that the decision will probably be based on wether Tesla believe that they can fully automate the production and if they believe it's a desirable feature on the Y.
Because Elon originally tweeted that they would have FWD's we know that he believes they are a desirable feature on the Y. They have probably already made the decision. Given all of the speculation why haven't they said anything more about this? If they are planning to do this I believe that they would wait to announce it until they can produce the FWD's efficiently and they hit 5k-10k weekly M3 production in order to attempt to minimize the hand wringing.
I think that the best indication is how completely they have been able automate the production on the X.
EPA testing documents for the Model 3 have appeared:
https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/datafiles/CSI-HTSLV00.0L13.PDF
There are at least two things of interest:
1. The long range version appears to have an ~80kWh battery. This would explain why Tesla called it "Long Range" instead of by its number (80). They're obviously afraid of Osbourning the much more expensive Model S, which is selling with a 75kWh rated battery.
2. They appear to be using a permanent magnet AC motor. This would be a first for Tesla, and perhaps curious for such a high-volume vehicle as a PMAC motor is generally more expensive and supply-chain sensitive for it's rare earth metal components. However, they're generally more efficient than AC Induction motors, which might explain some of the range improvements.
https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/datafiles/CSI-HTSLV00.0L13.PDF
There are at least two things of interest:
1. The long range version appears to have an ~80kWh battery. This would explain why Tesla called it "Long Range" instead of by its number (80). They're obviously afraid of Osbourning the much more expensive Model S, which is selling with a 75kWh rated battery.
2. They appear to be using a permanent magnet AC motor. This would be a first for Tesla, and perhaps curious for such a high-volume vehicle as a PMAC motor is generally more expensive and supply-chain sensitive for it's rare earth metal components. However, they're generally more efficient than AC Induction motors, which might explain some of the range improvements.
And a graph for Q1 Addressable market.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Evidently Mazda 4 cylinder engines produced the most power per litre of fuel used. Both gasoline and diesel. Toyota gets access to this "skyactive technology" and Mazda gets access to Toyota's alternative fueled vehicles to meet ZEV requirements around the world.
Per Japanese tradition, Mazda also acquired a position in Toyota. This means Mazda's only differentiator is that it will have (maybe) wankel engined sports cars. It seems to me in the not too distant future all Japanese car companies save Nissan-Mitsubishi will be subsidiaries of Toyota.
ValueAnalyst
Closed
Can we just all agree that there is almost no reason left to buy any other car than the Model 3? This is as of today.
Model 3 is better in each category than nearly every car separately. So combined... I mean... Idk.
More than 10 MILLION people buy the cars listed in that article EACH YEAR.
How will Tesla meet that demand with one Gigafactory?!
We're not talking 2020 or later. Model 3 is better in every category than 95% of competition in each category NOW.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
The question isn't at what efficiency Model X is being produced at relative to Model S but what is the efficiency and cost of producing FWD on Model Y vs Model 3.
It is less important what Elon thinks is a desirable feature but what potential customers think is a desirable feature.
Elon's point of reference, outlook and word view is closer to the typical Gen II buyer than the Gen III buyer.
Most people that can't afford an X but might buy a Y are afraid of the potential repair cost of FWD. Many people see upgrade from CRV and RAV4 justified by keeping Model Y 10-15 years. But these people don't want to keep Model Y for the 10-15 years if they have to worry about FWD repair cost. You have 0 worries about conventional door repair cost. Even if in actuality there are some.
This is in addition to the people who dislike the FWD for their conspicuousness and time delay vs conventional doors.
The number of potential customers that will buy something other than a Tesla if Model Y offers conventional doors seems rather tiny vs the potential lost customers if Tesla does use FWD on Model Y.
It seems using FWD on Model Y is a lot of risk for little gains or potentially large losses.
Calm down. I trust Elon and Tesla that they know better than you do/we do here and that they allready know they they need more GFs...Can we just all agree that there is almost no reason left to buy any other car than the Model 3? This is as of today.
Model 3 is better in each category than nearly every car separately. So combined... I mean... Idk.
More than 10 MILLION people buy the cars listed in that article EACH YEAR.
How will Tesla meet that demand with one Gigafactory?!
We're not talking 2020 or later. Model 3 is better in every category than 95% of competition in each category NOW.
Could you help me find this info plz? I see on page 7 they have "recharge event energy" at 89.41 kWh and "charging depleting range" at 454.64 miles. If we use the advertised 310 miles, wouldn't this indicate 61 kWh of a single charge?
Three things:
- A full charge took 89.41 kWh from the wall. If you figure that the charger is 89% efficient it put 79.57 kWh of energy into the battery after being depleted. (Edit: Since Tesla says the end SOC is 78.2 kWh that means that the charger is 87.5% efficient, so less efficient than I guessed.)
- 351 average voltage times 222.81 Amp hours = 78.2 kWh
- In the manufacturer test comments: END-SOC - 78270 wh. = 78.2 kWh.
I think you are missing what the actual tests show:
- The Model 3 Long Range went 495.11 miles on a single charge. (Using the 81 - Charge Depleting UDDS: SAE J1634 Multi-cycle test procedure.
- The Model 3 Long Range went 454.64 miles on a single charge. (Using the 84 - Charge Depleting Highway: SAE J1634 Multi-cycle test procedure.
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Yes. And Tesla notes at the bottom of page 6 & 7, also reference a 78.27kWh battery pack.
There may also be an argument FWDs help uniquely differentiate MX from MY reducing some of the similar angst of M3 v MS.
Displacement(liters): .001
Air aspiration method: naturally aspirated
Motor/Generator Type 1: AC 3 PHASE PERMENANT[sic] MAGNET
etc.
Good enough for government work. Time to pull the Cobol programmers out of retirement and update some of the IBM DB2 fields.
LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
We also learn that it's "engine" is "normally aspirated" and that the battery is 221.81Ah with average voltage of 351V for total energy of 77.86kWh. This is in conflict with information from Senior Tinkerer wk057 who stated confidently that the battery is 402V with 96 cells in series.
I'm surprised by the PMAC motor, but it explains where the extra efficiency comes from. LR M3 is >20% more efficient than a 100D, aero and weight deltas don't account for this large difference. If these motors come to the 100D it may get EPA 350 miles. PMAC may mean stronger regen braking too.
Edit: Late to the party.
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In this quality ranking 1) Lexus, 2) Mazda, 3) Toyota, 4) Audi, 5) Subaru, 6) Porsche, 7) Buick, 8) Honda, 9) Kia, 10) BMW.
Consumer Reports' best and worst car brands in 2015
They have driven great, but been loud. They have really worked on that. Try driving the hardtop Miata. I did at the auto show and we whispered for the who test drive and it worked.
As mentioned elsewhere, they have the most efficient engines and best tactile sense of any ICE car (better than BMW) and second only to Lexus in quality - see above.
I took a loss on them to move into Tesla.
I think you missed one word in that: average voltage. So the fully charged voltage is 402, average is 351, discharged would be 300.
LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
Yep you're right, I untagged the senior tinkerer so as not to draw his wrath.
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