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2017 Investor Roundtable: TSLA Market Action

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So, I de-risked over the past couple of days... and then this morning, saw that we went above $234 and went back to risk on, just for the day. Mostly buying next week's ITM calls with a hair trigger to get out. Made some decent returns.

I'm still extremely cautious for the next interval through ER. I'll take day positions as warranted, especially with news. I'm defensive overall outside of TSLA.

Congrats all!
 
@Jayjs20,

I used to daytrade leveraged ETFs... probably got used to risk and surprises on that stuff. TSLA stock and options is way more pleasant. Part of the reason is I understand what the company is doing. Makes trading the stock easier. Bad idea to trade something if you don't understand it.

Don't buy on massive up days like today just because you feel left out, or sell on down days unless something major, fundamentally, has changed.

Buy a little on a down day, buy more on a big down day, etc. When you're totally euphoric with the gains you see in one day, maybe sell a little. Odds are TSLA will go up from here over the years. Be ready for downs and accept the fact your account could be in the red for 6 months, consider it a buying opportunity.

Keep reading this forum, info here will make you understand the fundamentals of the company. If those are breaking down you'll hear about it here. If fundamentals are strong keep buying dips.
 
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Thanks. In the months prior to my chickening out, I often threw the month's leftover income into the stock, only to see it disappear within a week. Doing that for half a year really chewed away at me. But, my god, I wish I had only held on because I would be up so much right now. I hopped back in but kept a decent portion to buy in on dip days, as advised.
 
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@Jayjs20

I wouldn't necessarily consider my words advice, but I will share my story.

In June 2016 I sold my home to move closer to work. I had wanted to be invested in TSLA years ago, but did not have any available cash to do so. When I sold my home, and moved into a rental home closer to work (as strange as it sounds, this was indeed financially sound), I suddenly came into around $50,000 - the equity in my home. I purchased some nice things for my new home (a new bed, and a new couch) and once I'd rearranged my banking situation, I had a little shy of $40,000 left to invest with.

I am 100% weighted to TSLA derivatives - from the beginning, my goal has been to make enough money to buy the Model 3 I reserved in March with the profits, so I would still have my principal should I decide to buy a home again in the future after I own the car. To make that kind of growth rate, I have to play risky.

I bought in right around the start of July. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a chart and determine that I spent most of the rest of 2016 deeply in the red. I had lost about half of my total investment through the fall. This wasn't comfortable by any stretch of the imagination, but I continue to follow the news here every day, and continue to analyse what I think the future holds for TSLA. I have remained convinced this whole time that SP's of 300-400 are inevitable post-Model 3 launch, and SP's well beyond that are possible by 2020. With this nearly $60 run since early December, I have recovered all of my losses, and am now finally in the green on my account.

If you can't handle the emotional roller coaster - I would recommend buying TSLA common and try not to look at the price day-to-day so long as your thesis on the long-term fundamentals remains sound. The market is all over the place, and the signal-to-noise ratio on the SP is... bad. Additionally, being a high-beta stock, TSLA amplifies the noise on the market - we often move up or down 1% on a day for no reason at all.
 
I'm seeing TSLA SP movement broken down into three phases.... the 20-40 range before everyone knew about the stock (I looked at it and traded 80-100, I was a rookie), the 140-280 range which we've been in for a few years, and the post-model 3 era which will come next.

Figure you have quite a few months to find good entry points. Make up your mind to buy the dips until model 3 comes out.
 
Can I get some advice please.

I don't know what happened to my nerve, but I've been frozen in paralysis for the last month or so. I don't exactly make a lot of money at my job, but I do make a decent amount more than my expenses every month. In the last 1.5 years, I've saved up a good deal of money by living pretty modestly. That's why, when I wake up in the morning and see that I've lost over a month's worth of pay before I open my eyes, it's pretty horrifying. After a couple of those episodes, I got rid of my shares and quickly went crying under my blanket. This happens to be around the time TSLA started taking off. I've been wanting to get back in every day, but it's already gone up so much, so quickly that I can't kick the feeling that a huge crash/correction is coming just around the corner, and if I buy in now, it'll probably drop 10 points come next week or something stupid. There's also the fact that the stock market is going up at an unsustainable pace so that'll crash eventually too.

What would you guys do if you were in my shoes? Would you wait for a potential correction (that may come when the stock is 300+, or even may never come) or should I just hop back in now, and eat any loss that may potentially be lurking around the corner?

Obviously no one knows the future, but my hunch is that we're going to sit in the $230-$270 range until mid-year and then hopefully take off once TE volume and a well executed M3 arrive.

I don't see a major correction in TSLA coming - $200/share or less was just a steal. In the context of the past few years, $235 is just an average price.

So my investment advice (which is potentially worth what you paid for it) is that I'd buy in now with 1/3rd of the max money you're ultimately willing to put in TSLA. Then buy the 2nd third if/when TSLA drops a lot (<$210), or when obvious positive catalysts are moving closer (Q2 - Q3 if M3 looks on track). Save that last third in case there is a massive correction (<$160) or you're super bullish.
 
Can I get some advice please.
Yes. This is... psychological advice, not investment advice.

I don't know what happened to my nerve, but I've been frozen in paralysis for the last month or so. I don't exactly make a lot of money at my job, but I do make a decent amount more than my expenses every month. In the last 1.5 years, I've saved up a good deal of money by living pretty modestly. That's why, when I wake up in the morning and see that I've lost over a month's worth of pay before I open my eyes, it's pretty horrifying. After a couple of those episodes, I got rid of my shares and quickly went crying under my blanket.
You can't stomach the stock market fluctuations. They upset you. This is why most people are told to stay out of the individual stock market.

My family has a *very very strong tolerance* for market fluctuations. I once bought a position (about 1/5 of my total assets) which dropped by 50% and sat there for a year, before rising back up and tripling my original investment two years later. I wasn't bothered at all. This is why I can do long-term investment in individual stocks.

I'm primarily living off my investments. And none of them pay dividends! So my livelihood is actually dependent on the ability to sell the stock at appreciated prices. But the daily fluctuations do not bother me. I keep enough cash for a year, and make sure each year that I liquidate enough for the next year.

As a long termer you MUST have a time horizon. When you buy a stock for the long haul, you have to be ready to completely ignore the stock price until your time period has come up; to shrug it off. You only look at the price when your time horizon is up, or when there is actually news (you know, like "Musk has been killed by a meteorite!")

This happens to be around the time TSLA started taking off. I've been wanting to get back in every day, but it's already gone up so much, so quickly that I can't kick the feeling that a huge crash/correction is coming just around the corner, and if I buy in now, it'll probably drop 10 points come next week or something stupid.
It probably will. I'm not usually good at short-term timing. I tend to buy at local highs. If you buy in now, expect it to drop by 20% next week. If you think it'll be worth $1000/share in 2019, *you don't care*.

What would you guys do if you were in my shoes?
Well, the thing is, I'm not in your psychological shoes. I'm going to give you my generic speech which I give to every newbie interested in investing.

(1) The most important thing is to be able to sleep at night. Don't invest in anything which keeps you awake at night. The money isn't worth the stress-related illnesses.
(2) You want an emergency fund, in an FDIC-insured bank account, sufficient to deal with any likely emergency. So that you never have to sell an investment on a day when you don't want to.

For me, market fluctuations don't bother me *at all*.
But anything involving being in debt keeps me awake at night -- so I don't use leveraged strategies.
And anything involving the whiff of criminality by the execs bothers me a great deal and leaves me wondering "if they'll cheat their customers, will they cheat their stockholders?" So I've stayed out of some bank stocks which could have been very profitable, because they would have kept me awake at night.
And it turns out (I experimented once) that I hate being on the wrong side of time decay. It makes me nervous and I stop thinking clearly. So I don't like being long on options, so I don't buy options. (I do sell options.)

Risk tolerance isn't a single thing. You have to take the risks which YOU personally can tolerate. I'm unusual. I know people who are fine with very heavy debt and time decay but still bothered by the fluctuations.

If you still really want to get into TSLA stock despite the fact that the market fluctuations have been keeping you awake at night, these are my tips for changing your psychology:
-- NEVER look up the stock price online. Just don't.
-- Buy the stock and *forget about it* for at least a year.
-- Don't hang out on this forum!
-- Remember that you haven't lost money until you sell the stock. (This is the IRS opinion!)

If you don't have enough discipline to "buy and forget", the stock is probably going to keep upsetting you. You have to decide whether the amount of money you could make is worth developing nasty stress-related illnesses. I'd probably say no, myself, but then I already have stress-related illnesses.
 
@Jayjs20

I wouldn't necessarily consider my words advice, but I will share my story.

In June 2016 I sold my home to move closer to work. I had wanted to be invested in TSLA years ago, but did not have any available cash to do so. When I sold my home, and moved into a rental home closer to work (as strange as it sounds, this was indeed financially sound), I suddenly came into around $50,000 - the equity in my home. I purchased some nice things for my new home (a new bed, and a new couch) and once I'd rearranged my banking situation, I had a little shy of $40,000 left to invest with.

I am 100% weighted to TSLA derivatives - from the beginning, my goal has been to make enough money to buy the Model 3 I reserved in March with the profits, so I would still have my principal should I decide to buy a home again in the future after I own the car. To make that kind of growth rate, I have to play risky.

I bought in right around the start of July. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a chart and determine that I spent most of the rest of 2016 deeply in the red. I had lost about half of my total investment through the fall. This wasn't comfortable by any stretch of the imagination, but I continue to follow the news here every day, and continue to analyse what I think the future holds for TSLA. I have remained convinced this whole time that SP's of 300-400 are inevitable post-Model 3 launch, and SP's well beyond that are possible by 2020. With this nearly $60 run since early December, I have recovered all of my losses, and am now finally in the green on my account.

If you can't handle the emotional roller coaster - I would recommend buying TSLA common and try not to look at the price day-to-day so long as your thesis on the long-term fundamentals remains sound. The market is all over the place, and the signal-to-noise ratio on the SP is... bad. Additionally, being a high-beta stock, TSLA amplifies the noise on the market - we often move up or down 1% on a day for no reason at all.

I'm similar - sold house in January and now rent. Got €60k out of the sale. Looked at $TSLA in a big dip and persuaded the wife to let me buy 100 at $146. One seek later, SP had risen $20 and I twisted the wife's arm to throw the rest of the money in. I had 8 shares previously bought at $270 and have bought some since at various price points.

We're 40% up, but won't sell. Either we wait until it hits 450 - then we buy a summer house, or we wait 10-15 years and retire millionaires. It's good either way.
 
Obviously no one knows the future, but my hunch is that we're going to sit in the $230-$270 range until mid-year
God, I hope so. I sold Jan 20 SCTY $25 puts expecting them to expire in the money and buy me more TSLA. We're above $227.27; they're out of the money
I sold Jan 20 SCTY $27 puts expecting them to expire in the money and buy me more TSLA. If it goes over $245.45, they'll be out of the money.
I sold Jan 20 SCTY $30 puts expecting *them* to expire in the money and buy me more TSLA. If it goes over $272.72, *they'll* out of the money.

I mean I can't complain too much but... I really wasn't expecting this big a runup *before Q4 earnings* were announced.
 
Thanks. In the months prior to my chickening out, I often threw the month's leftover income into the stock, only to see it disappear within a week. Doing that for half a year really chewed away at me. But, my god, I wish I had only held on because I would be up so much right now.
This, this right here -- bailing out just before a stock goes up because it's been trading flat or down and it makes the investor *nervous* -- is why most individual investors lose money in the stock market. This.

Well, this and buying at all-time highs because of fear of missing out.

As you can see, if you get nervous when the stock is low (and sell) and are afraid of missing out when the stock is high (and buy), you end up buying high and selling low, which is a terrible strategy. Buffett says "Be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy", which is a psychological translation of "buy low, sell high".
 
Anticipating a brick wall at 235 (which I've posted several times over the last few days, it's huge resistance), I got out of my deep ITM Jan 20 short puts when SP was around 234.50 for a solid gain - almost 50% on ITM short puts I consider to be great.

Hopefully I just chickened out too early and we bust through 235. I think 250 is in the cards if we break 235 for a sustained period.
For the record, we busted through to close at $237.75. What's the next technical resistance level?
 
-- NEVER look up the stock price online. Just don't.
-- Buy the stock and *forget about it* for at least a year.
-- Don't hang out on this forum!
-- Remember that you haven't lost money until you sell the stock. (This is the IRS opinion!)

Reading this reminded me of the fact that what works good for one person is bad for another....

I happen to feel much more comfortable holding a stock long term if I'm aware of the small movements and understand their cause. So hanging out on this forum and short-term trading actually makes me more comfortable with my long-term hold.

The idea of having bought at 180-200 and ignoring it for a few months only to see it at 140 without knowing what happened is more unpleasant than watching it go down and understanding why it's going down, while strategizing on timing another buy at the bottom. That would also allow me an early exit if things really got nasty. I'm of the mindset that some dips are buying opportunities while others are a time to sell. Knowing the cause of the dip should give me insight into which one it is.
 
Can I get some advice please.

I don't know what happened to my nerve, but I've been frozen in paralysis for the last month or so. I don't exactly make a lot of money at my job, but I do make a decent amount more than my expenses every month. In the last 1.5 years, I've saved up a good deal of money by living pretty modestly. That's why, when I wake up in the morning and see that I've lost over a month's worth of pay before I open my eyes, it's pretty horrifying. After a couple of those episodes, I got rid of my shares and quickly went crying under my blanket. This happens to be around the time TSLA started taking off. I've been wanting to get back in every day, but it's already gone up so much, so quickly that I can't kick the feeling that a huge crash/correction is coming just around the corner, and if I buy in now, it'll probably drop 10 points come next week or something stupid. There's also the fact that the stock market is going up at an unsustainable pace so that'll crash eventually too.

I don't have interest in any other stock at the moment because I don't think any major company has the growth potential that Tesla has over the next few years or over the next decade. What would you guys do if you were in my shoes? Would you wait for a potential correction (that may come when the stock is 300+, or even may never come) or should I just hop back in now, and eat any loss that may potentially be lurking around the corner?

Days like this also really hurt me because I also factor in potential gain loss, which, for a day like today, is a lot.
I don't mean to disrespect you. But I think I have been seeing you buy-high-sell-low TSLA for almost a year. This stock is not for you. You are bad at timing the market and holding a stock at the same time. To not lose money to TSLA, you need to be at least mediocre at one of this. Market makers love you because it is from your loss they make their gains.

Just forget about it and buy SPY every month. It's not your type.
 
I don't mean to disrespect you. But I think I have been seeing you buy-high-sell-low TSLA for almost a year. This stock is not for you. You are bad at timing the market and holding a stock at the same time.

I have another strategy for @Jayjs20...

If everyone on this forum is all excited, making fun of the shorts, talking about the stock going to $1000, talking about the next resistance level, don't buy!

When people on here are whiny, complaining that the stock is constantly manipulated, the market is rigged and it's just not fair, and worried about the next support level, then buy!
 
Reading this reminded me of the fact that what works good for one person is bad for another....
So absolutely true!

I happen to feel much more comfortable holding a stock long term if I'm aware of the small movements and understand their cause. So hanging out on this forum and short-term trading actually makes me more comfortable with my long-term hold.
If it works for you, that's great!

I should say that I *do* follow the *business news* for a company I'm investing in (looking at product sales and announcements, factory openings, quarterly reports, new competitors, etc. etc. etc.) even when I'm not looking at the stock price. I wouldn't recommend *totally* ignoring a stock, ever, just ignoring the short-term stock price fluctuations. If you're a long-termer the short-term stuff is noise.

I grew up investing in the days when small investors read the stock price in the Wall Street Journal. In *print*. Which made it rather easy to ignore the daily movements of the stock price most of the time; I just didn't look at that section of the newspaper. I still read the news sections.

The idea of having bought at 180-200 and ignoring it for a few months only to see it at 140 without knowing what happened is more unpleasant than watching it go down and understanding why it's going down, while strategizing on timing another buy at the bottom. That would also allow me an early exit if things really got nasty. I'm of the mindset that some dips are buying opportunities while others are a time to sell. Knowing the cause of the dip should give me insight into which one it is.
Absolutely.
 
Pleasant, and unpleasant, surprise today. My portfolio is up nicely, but the 3 covered calls I sold for 230 last week (expiring today) were a mistake. I will sell puts in the next week or two and hope I can get back in on a dip, and make some money while trying....
 
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I don't mean to disrespect you. But I think I have been seeing you buy-high-sell-low TSLA for almost a year. This stock is not for you. You are bad at timing the market and holding a stock at the same time. To not lose money to TSLA, you need to be at least mediocre at one of this. Market makers love you because it is from your loss they make their gains.

Just forget about it and buy SPY every month. It's not your type.
Or he could make a deal with his broker to always submit the opposite order to what he asks :D He'd have been making tons of profit being contrarian to himself :)

I myself am now comfortably living in my strategy of puts for the next 2-3 weeks, if their value / margin requirement becomes too low buy them back and sell the next best case for ~the same margin (but higher $ value). I usually pick the 0.2 delta puts as the entry points and exit if delta falls below 0.1 and consider rolling the option further out in both time and strike if it hits delta > 0.3.

I also occasionally buy an ATM call ca 3-6 months out and sell 2-3 same expiry puts to finance it (+some for profit). And then slowly over time roll the options forward if margin requirements allow until I can finally roll them to near term and have expire worthless. This way I had a March 190 call and June 205 call for free. Swapped the March one to March 225 and June one to June 230 last week pocketing the difference. So now not only did I get them for free, I already cashed out a couple of grands. The puts I've already expired by pulling forward. The fast raise from early Dec to now of almost 60$ has helped a lot. There have been days where I had to roll up the puts 2-3x per week as they had lost 70% of their value already :) So my portfolio that is 100% TSLA derivatives has not quite tripled since December, but almost :) And all of my commitments right now make up ca 50% of my available margin so I can survive a 30% drop in TSLA without facing a margin call and I could always roll them out to 2018/19 puts of ~$100 or smth reducing margin requirement multiple times.
 
For the record, we busted through to close at $237.75. What's the next technical resistance level?
In my opinion... psychological numbers, 240, 250....and then of course ATH.
TSLA has repaired most of the obvious technical damage. Above the major moving average levels, and broke above longer term down-trend channel, and also now out of the longer-term lower high pattern.
 
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