2020 Porsche Taycan Turbo Gets EPA Range Rating Of Just 201 Miles

[whitex]

Though I laugh every time I see a quote from one of these ICE companies claiming that coasting when taking your foot off the accelerator, rather than regen, is more efficient.

Of course it is more efficient to coast than to regen and reaccelerate. Simple physics. Regen is not 100% efficient, whenever you regen you lose some % of the power to generator and battery charging inefficiencies. If you can use the very same energy to just keep rolling, you will go farther on the same energy.

If you get you car up to say 60mph and let it coast down to 0, you will get a lot farther than if you do stop and go pattern trying to keep up with the coasting car - regen to 0mph and then accelerate hard to catchup to the coasting car until you use up energy from the regen, then repeat the regen-launch-regen-launch-... process until you run out of energy.

 

[mswlogo]

Porsche makes really, really great gasoline-powered cars.
No doubt about it.
But they're like the oldest and finest cassette tape manufacturer that now must learn how to make CD's, while the competition is already making flash drives...

More like cloud storage

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

I think the point is Tesla lets you hurt your battery longevity (you can charge to 100% every time), while other manufactures choose not to. Yes, it gives the customer more "power", but at the same time it's the proverbial "shotgun you can shoot yourself in a foot with". For Tesla, that potentially means having to replace more batteries under warranty. It can also hurt used car value, especially once the batteries are out of warranty. If you are buying a used car with a an expensive battery, knowing that the previous owners were fully allowed to abuse and you not be able to check is likely to reduce the value of vehicles out of warranty or ones which will go out of warranty during your planned ownership period. If even a small percentage of owners kill their batteries, but there is no way to tell, and those batteries start failing out of warranty, this will create an impression of Tesla batteries not being reliable after warranty. Even people who understand the issue will know they are gambling when buying a used Tesla, vs. other manufacturer car which the regular user is locked out of abusing in the battery in this way.

Do you have ANYTHING to backup your theory that Porsche/Audi have some magic formula for battery life, or even that Porsche has unused battery and they are therefore so happy with 201 EPA miles of range that they are keeping some of their battery capacity hidden?

The one part of your post which makes sense is that there really needs to be a way to run a battery diagnostic, especially when buying a used BEV, so the buyer understands the risk of battery failure.

 

[CreamSoduh]

The 201 number is too close to just breaking 200 to be coincidence. Part of me thinks they tested it at like 191 and had to unlock some of their locked capacity to break that barrier so the rating doesn't start with a 1.

I'll still get one. Porsche is starting with a capped battery so maybe they can uncap later which is OK - Tesla illegally caps them post sale which isn't OK.

Since I've looked into buying them, I should point out that people won't need to charge the Taycan to 90%. Porsche caps teh battery so 100% isn't actually 100% and lets them charge to full every day and regen brake on a 100% charge. I wouldn't buy one for range, but if anyone was worried about daily charging they have a totally different perspective on daily charging.

*IF* they do decide to uncap the battery I think it would only barely offset the battery degradation, in my opinion, after the first few years. Also worth mentioning there is 79kwh variant in one of the YouTube reviews that displayed 136 miles of range at 80%. The Taycan 4s.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Do you have ANYTHING to backup your theory that Porsche/Audi have some magic formula for battery life, or even that Porsche has unused battery and they are therefore so happy with 201 EPA miles of range that they are keeping some of their battery capacity hidden?

The one part of your post which makes sense is that there really needs to be a way to run a battery diagnostic, especially when buying a used BEV, so the buyer understands the risk of battery failure.

The only thing official I’ve seen suggesting amount of buffer doesn’t look good for that. 488Wh/mile according to EPA times 201 miles is ~98kWh. Who’s betting the capacity of the battery including buffer is significantly higher than that? Given that they originally announced it, from what I’ve seen, at 93.5kWh, it looks more like they just eliminated the buffer entirely to push the range over 200 miles.

 

[PWlakewood]

The only thing official I’ve seen suggesting amount of buffer doesn’t look good for that. 488Wh/mile according to EPA times 201 miles is ~98kWh. Who’s betting the capacity of the battery including buffer is significantly higher than that? Given that they originally announced it, from what I’ve seen, at 93.5kWh, it looks more like they just eliminated the buffer entirely to push the range over 200 miles.

This is already going to hurt porsche whether the fanboys of Porsche want to admit it or not. Releasing an EV in this day and age where range has been touted as the benchmark for all things in the segment is such a huge thing to try and ignore. I don't care what brand of car it is but for me range is first and performance second. You will have those certain type of people who will buy it no matter what but this is just embarrassing.

 

[VT_EE]

Can you tell me why this is an advantage? If their 90% reports as 100%, then why not just charge to 90% and pretend you're at 100%. Not to mention, with Tesla, you can get that extra 10% of battery if/when you need it. I like Tesla's approach better.

It’s a safety feature for the manufacturer since there is less chance of being sued because of degradation or other issues that may require lowering the max battery voltage as the pack ages. It also eliminates the possibility of bad charging habits causing premature degradation.

 

[Chaserr]

@MarcusMaximus EPA numbers include charging losses so you can't use it to calculate battery size directly.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

This thread badly needs accurate information on Porsche battery management system.

One thing that I really like about Tesla's approach is we know how much is reserved to prevent bricking, and we know there isn't any artificial charge limit. Meaning a 100% charge is really a 100% charge (unless you have a SW limited one of course).

Sure I get that might not be the best solution for average people as it requires people to understand the implications of charging to 100%. But, it works great for me.

 

[IndyToronto]

460 wH seems crazy high. My new P100D is a hair under 300 wH with 2k miles...and that's mostly in sub 50 degree weather so far.

Probably driving style makes a large difference.

If I accelerate slower and I keep reasonable speeds, and turn on Chill mode, Wh/km goes down and range improves. If I turn off chill mode and floor it, Wh/km goes way up during that crazy length of time of driving too fast. Supposedly the EPA range assumes a relatively slow speed and not the usual 130kph+++ people usually drive Teslas at.

On a really bad snowstorm, the range on my 70D was only 200km. (I got home at 2%) (125miles).

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

It’s a safety feature for the manufacturer since there is less chance of being sued because of degradation or other issues that may require lowering the max battery voltage as the pack ages. It also eliminates the possibility of bad charging habits causing premature degradation.

Not only that, but it solves additional headaches as well.

Don't have to worry about re-gen being limited like it is with a 100% battery
Don't have to worry about the length of time it takes people to charge from 90% to 100%.

There are a couple downsides though

Reduction in trip range
Can't charge to 100% to do cell balancing.

 

[geoffmanley]

Probably driving style makes a large difference.

If I accelerate slower and I keep reasonable speeds, and turn on Chill mode, Wh/km goes down and range improves. If I turn off chill mode and floor it, Wh/km goes way up during that crazy length of time of driving too fast. Supposedly the EPA range assumes a relatively slow speed and not the usual 130kph+++ people usually drive Teslas at.

On a really bad snowstorm, the range on my 70D was only 200km. (I got home at 2%) (125miles).

Oh, I freely admit that I have a heavy foot. Also, I don't really care all that much about the 460 Wh/m, it just means I charge a bit more often, which is still only like 2 or 3 times per week.

 

[whitex]

Do you have ANYTHING to backup your theory that Porsche/Audi have some magic formula for battery life, or even that Porsche has unused battery and they are therefore so happy with 201 EPA miles of range that they are keeping some of their battery capacity hidden?

No hackers have gotten a hold of a Taycan yet to verify hands-on, but give that Audi eTron went through the exact same steps (even the lowering of official EPA rated range just before release) and the fact that it's reported from multiple sources that they calibrate full battery to 90% SoC, there is a very good chance of that.

The one part of your post which makes sense is that there really needs to be a way to run a battery diagnostic, especially when buying a used BEV, so the buyer understands the risk of battery failure.

Yea, Tesla doesn't want that for multiple reasons. One, they allow the customers to push the batteries to 100% any time and as often as they want, so there may be some damages batteries out there which will affect the Tesla battery longevity image. Seconds, people don't understand batteries, so it would be hard for people to objectively compare - maybe some day all companies will agree on a common simplified battery health measurement. Third, it might make come customers demand new/refurb batteries or repairs under the 8 year warranty - they can hide an occasional under-performing cell or module in the current model. Things like the recent capping of batteries are harder to deny too if user has visibility to battery stats.

 

[FatherTo1]

Of course it is more efficient to coast than to regen and reaccelerate. Simple physics. Regen is not 100% efficient, whenever you regen you lose some % of the power to generator and battery charging inefficiencies. If you can use the very same energy to just keep rolling, you will go farther on the same energy.

If you get you car up to say 60mph and let it coast down to 0, you will get a lot farther than if you do stop and go pattern trying to keep up with the coasting car - regen to 0mph and then accelerate hard to catchup to the coasting car until you use up energy from the regen, then repeat the regen-launch-regen-launch-... process until you run out of energy.

How do we coast? As soon as you let up the go pedal, you're in regen, yes/no? Or do we try to for absolutely net zero energy use/gain, no orange and no green?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Oh, I freely admit that I have a heavy foot. Also, I don't really care all that much about the 460 Wh/m, it just means I charge a bit more often, which is still only like 2 or 3 times per week.

Even without a heavy foot the range is highly variable depending on what your commute is like, and the outside conditions.

Like on my commute to work today I averaged 395 Wh/mile without any kind of fast starts. It's a short commute of 8.6 miles which consists of a 300ft climb, and 413ft decline. It's 40 degree weather so I expect it to be pretty bad.

The same commute done during the Summer I averaged 270 Wh/mile. It wasn't terribly warm as it was 52.5 degrees outside. But, it makes a world of difference when it comes to regen.

No-regen with lots of stop lights is going to give a terrible range.

This is exactly why I don't put much stock in EPA numbers. In neither June nor September did I get anywhere close to rated efficiency.

I especially don't put much stock into Tesla provided numbers.

Like right now on Tesla website it shows a 0-60 time of 3.2S, and a range of 322 miles. Which is kinda funny because those two numbers are from different variants.

The P3D is supposed to be 310 miles. With numbers like that it's expected that owners would hit 280 miles or so on a fairly regular basis. But, there are very few of them on TeslaFi. In fact the TeslaFI leaderboard is filled with numbers well below 300.

In summary most people don't get rated range or anywhere close to it. It's simply not a good indicator of expected range. In fact I switched from rated miles to percentage left on the battery because it was so worthless.

 

[TMThree]

Of course it is more efficient to coast than to regen and reaccelerate. Simple physics. Regen is not 100% efficient, whenever you regen you lose some % of the power to generator and battery charging inefficiencies. If you can use the very same energy to just keep rolling, you will go farther on the same energy.

Its not all or nothing. If you need to slow down a little bit, you let off the accelerator a little and let it regen slightly to recoup only what is needed. If you don't need to slow down, then don't let off the accelerator.

I only regen when I need to slow. Otherwise I'm modulating the vehicle speed as needed.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

How do we coast? As soon as you let up the go pedal, you're in regen, yes/no? Or do we try to for absolutely net zero energy use/gain, no orange and no green?

You really can't in a Tesla at least not easily.

It's simply a technique hypermilers use.

For average daily driving in an EV I think it's pointless. For example it doesn't work to your benefit coming up to stop light.

In some ways this whole discussion is weird. It's like going to a Ferrari forum, and seeing people talk about using hypermiling techniques to improve the range and efficiency of their cars.

Other things hypermilers do is they get behind large semi's, and they pick small ugly tires/wheel combo's.

 

[CreamSoduh]

Anyone interested on Porsche's own in-car calculations for different driving modes can be seen in Doug Demuro's review of the Taycan Turbo. Although he quickly glosses over it you can see the different range estimates of each mode:

time stamp starts
@ 17:39

Normal: 216 miles
Range: 225 miles
Sport: 211 miles
Sport+: 206 miles

"

"

NOTE: at 7:45 of the video you can see the car is charged to 99%

 

[whitex]

How do we coast? As soon as you let up the go pedal, you're in regen, yes/no? Or do we try to for absolutely net zero energy use/gain, no orange and no green?

No orange no green is coasting. Doable put takes practice. Little green better than more green if it doesn't require you to use the brake. You can also set your regen to low, but that makes you waste energy when you are using the brakes. That said, the argument made by other Audi is that they let you coast when you let go of the accelerator, but when you hit the brakes, it will not engage the physical brakes right away but instead brake using regen as much as possible. While I like using one pedal driving, I can see their approach being more efficient for people who don't want to control the accelerator as precisely, to avoid the accelerate/regen/accelerate/regen cycles.

If you think about it, the Audi approach is what Tesla cruise control does - it keeps constant speed, coasting when appropriate, rather than speed-up, slow-down, speed-up, slow-down case if you cannot precisely control the accelerator with one pedal driving. I don't think anyone here will argue that Tesla cruise control is less efficient (on open road) than manual one pedal driving.

 

[mswlogo]

Doesn't matter that some independent lab can get a higher range - they can do that on a Tesla too and blow past 400. The whole point of the EPA doing it is to allow fair comparisons between cars. Big fail here - kind of sad given the Taycan is so nice otherwise. Which also means the smaller battery base model will be more like 150.

A neighbor was looking at the eTron, until he saw the range, and ended up with an ICE SUV instead. So sad the Germans missed the mark - like they were aiming just to beat the old Leaf. Maybe that kind of range works fine in Europe? I understand the eTron is selling well in the EU; not so much in the US.

Exactly. The whole point of Standards like EPA is for comparative shopping. Not that you’ll get exactly what EPA measures. Many folks get less than EPA.

If you want to change rulers you need to use the same ruler on all EV’s.