25 new chargers in Ontario canadian-tire-locations

[skhenry81]

@DMC-Orangeville You're right, I didn't factor in delivery or taxes. I still believe that for billing purposes it should be by the KWhr in order for it to be fair to all. I'm sure in due time with the launch of the 3 these rates will come down. I also think that since they are purchasing energy in bulk they should be able to be more competetive, so they can probably sell it cheaper without taking a lose.

 

[SmartElectric]

@DMC-Orangeville purchasing energy in bulk they should be able to be more competetive, so they can probably sell it cheaper without taking a lose.

It may be the exact opposite. Large electricity users in Ontario can end up paying based on their usage during monthly peaks. Obviously this is unlikely to be the case for a Canadian Tire store, they would more likely just be an industrial (non-residential) power user, where the rates are not based on peaks, but may introduce demand charges. @mknox knows this stuff better than I.


Anyway, if you need the charge, the cost is not a factor IMHO, especially if you are buying the almost $1000 CHAdeMO adaptor from Tesla to use infrequently. I would gladly pay the same price for charging as I would have for gas to drive the same distance if the charging was fast and would reduce my trip time substantially. For the trips we take in the winter, a L3 charger somewhere near Milton Ontario would help with return trips from Toronto-Waterloo in -20C.

 

[wayner]

EnRoute charging means good bye to range anxiety but they need to bring the cost in line with what electricity really cost. I pay 0.087 cents off peak and 0.18 cent during peak. A full charge at peak pricing is around $15 charging from 0 to 100%.

You pay more than that when you add on delivery and transmission charges. It is more like $.14 off peak and $0.23 on peak.

 

[hingisfan]

You pay more than that when you add on delivery and transmission charges. It is more like $.14 off peak and $0.23 on peak.

That seems about right. The hosting business in theory gains sales from ppl waiting for their charge tho too. Like in the old days, I would stop for a meal at Best Western Cobourg. I guess the market will play out what's a good balance.

 

[Drone Flyer]

Not too sure about "good bye to range anxiety". Those chargers will have only one station. If out of commission or currently occupied you are either screwed or in for a long wait to get your turn. Even if the Tesla Superchargers have problems, most likely a few stations at the location are still operable.

You can always have another Timmy's coffee while you wait! Probably need a "Double Double Minus" in order to reduce the sugar intake.

 

[mknox]

I guess this means we finally get the En Route charging stations.

Nope, it does not look like the ONroute stations will be included. There is a lot of scuttlebut that this is "political", but I believe it is really more of a technical issue. These stations are generally way out at the "skinny" end of the electrical distribution system and there simply may not be sufficient capacity and/or it would cost a fortune to get it there.

There are lots of Gas+ stations in towns just off the 401. I used to fuel up at one just off Hwy 25 in Milton, for example. In town, the electrical supply situationis generally better.

Charging should only be by KWhs used. Anything else is just robbery.

In Canada, only licensed electricity distributors (licensed by the OEB) are permitted to sell electricity by the kWh / kW. Further, the metering systems have to be Measurement Canada approved, tested, sealed and subject to regular removal and re-certification. And they have to meet a bunch of other requirements like having a display the customer can read. I really doubt the systems Tesla has in place in the car and at the Supercharger come even close.

You pay more than that when you add on delivery and transmission charges. It is more like $.14 off peak and $0.23 on peak.

For me, $0.2470 Peak, $0.1909 Mid-Peak and $0.1383 Off Peak. This is all-in (commodity, distribution and regulatory), loss adjusted and HST included. It does not factor in my fixed monthly fee, which I would pay regardless.

Having said this, commercial rate structures are completely different and draw a peak monthly demand charge (kW) as well.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

Flo, the owner of the Canadian Tire chargers, will charge what the market will pay. If $20.00/hr is too expensive, they may lower their rates. I would NOT expect them to sell their power at a loss, as they are a business. They will be paying on-peak rates, delivery charges, HST, and perhaps a demand charge...... 50 KW/Hr for $20.00 is $0.40 per KW/Hr.

@skhenry81 quotes his Toronto rates....does not include delivery charges, HST, etc (or a demand charge), and is at $0.18 /KWHr. Rural rates are higher too. I'd expect, fully loaded cost may be closer to $.30 per KWHr at these stations, so $.40 is in line with what it costs them in "raw materials".

My original justification that $20.00 per hour is not unreasonable

For me, $0.2470 Peak, $0.1909 Mid-Peak and $0.1383 Off Peak. This is all-in (commodity, distribution and regulatory), loss adjusted and HST included. It does not factor in my fixed monthly fee, which I would pay regardless.

Having said this, commercial rate structures are completely different and draw a peak monthly demand charge (kW) as well.

Mike (our local Ontario utility guru) confirms it....

 

[Phillip L]

Clearly at these rates they will be for emergency use. Certainly won't be for regular charging

Anyway, if you need the charge, the cost is not a factor IMHO, especially if you are buying the almost $1000 CHAdeMO adaptor from Tesla to use infrequently. I would gladly pay the same price for charging as I would have for gas to drive the same distance if the charging was fast and would reduce my trip time substantially. For the trips we take in the winter, a L3 charger somewhere near Milton Ontario would help with return trips from Toronto-Waterloo in -20C.

I checked the price on the Tesla site for the ChaDeMo adapter and its still listed at $450.00. That is the same price that I bought it for about eighteen months ago.
Otherwise I totally agree with the post. If I need the charge I will pay for it, especially if it saves me a few hours of twiddling my thumbs.

 

[Gen3]

That $ 20 / hour is a bit rich. A level 3 charge of 400V DC and 100A would be 40kw / hour = 50 cents / KWh.
So a Tesla 400km charge would be about $ 40.00
At current gas prices of about $ 1.00 / litre and a fairly thirsty 10 litre/100km car would pay also $ 40.00 for gas for the same distance.
A more efficient gas car would only pay $ 25.00
So what is the incentive to go electric?? Just the feel good for doing something for the environment won't cut it for the masses.

The incentive is the cheap overnight charging. Businesses have huge power demand charges starting at 50 KW that most people don't know about.

We should stop complaining about these prices. Just charge when it is cheap and be thankful for a growing infrastructure that gives us options, even if it more than we would like to pay.

 

[skhenry81]

I'll just charge at home or use a Supercharger free. I don't do many long distance trips and the ones that I do have Superchargers along the way. I plan on leaving my house with a 80 - 90% charge everyday so I doubt I will need to worry about pay per use stations.

 

[wayner]

The incentive is the cheap overnight charging. Businesses have huge power demand charges starting at 50 KW that most people don't know about.

The thing that I find is silly is that the daytime charging is generally free in office complexes that have chargers. Today I drove my car to downtown Toronto to a building that has three GE L2 chargers. One was being used by a Leaf and one by an electric Audi but the third one was open. I didn't really need the juice but I plugged in anyway since (1) I get a better parking spot and (2) it would save my about 20kWh at home tonight which would cost about $3. But in doing so I added to peak demand. Why not take advantage of free electricity if it is being provided?

 

[Canuck]

In Canada, only licensed electricity distributors (licensed by the OEB) are permitted to sell electricity by the kWh / kW. Further, the metering systems have to be Measurement Canada approved, tested, sealed and subject to regular removal and re-certification. And they have to meet a bunch of other requirements like having a display the customer can read.

Not true according to the OEB itself:

In OEB staff’s view, an electrical apparatus or infrastructure owned or operated for the sole intended purpose of charging EVs is not a system for distributing electricity. Given that an EV charging station does not provide distribution capability for load-types other than EVs, it should simply be viewed as a point of connection to the electrical grid. It follows then that a person who owns or operates an EV charging station is not a distributor solely because of that ownership or operation... For these reasons, OEB staff holds the view that an EV charging station is not a distribution system and that a person who owns or operates such a facility will not require a distributor licence from the OEB. Moreover, since owners and operators of EV charging stations do not, in OEB staff’s view, need to be licenced by the OEB, they are not subject to the OEB’s codes, rules, or other regulatory requirements solely because of that ownership or operation.

I really doubt the systems Tesla has in place in the car and at the Supercharger come even close.

Still have doubts?

 

[skhenry81]

Not true according to the OEB itself:





Still have doubts?

So, are you saying that I can own and operate a charging station for profit without being licensed?

 

[Canuck]

So, are you saying that I can own and operate a charging station for profit without being licensed?

I'm not saying anything other than the 10 words I wrote above. My post was, in fact, mostly a quote from the OEB.

So I can't answer your question other than to give my personal opinion which is that your question is inherently flawed. No one is going to make much, if any, of a "profit" by "owning and operating a charging station". A little profit, perhaps. Get rich? Unlikely. The OEB, in my opinion by reading what they decided, have erred on the side of the environment in exchange for allowing this little profit. So, let's say I am on a trip, and my only choice is an expensive charging station or an ICE vehicle. What's better? It looks to me like the OEB has said, "let's let the guy make a profit so we have a better chance of combating global warming." But (and it's a big BUT) the only exception is for EV's! If you try to sell electricity of any other purpose, the OEB will come down on you with an iron fist. I don't even think you need to read between the lines to understand that is what they are saying. Do you?

 

[Beckler]

I'm not worried about that price, rather the one to which they reduce it - when they get zero takers at $20/h.

 

[mknox]

Still have doubts?

Yes, I do. The language you quote is an interpretation from Board staff and is not currently in the actual Board regulations. It came up in the context of Local Distribution Companies (LDCs) a.k.a.local electricity utilities owning charging infrastructure. The problem with LDC ownership is that the Board will not allow utilities to cover the capital and operating costs of such stations in their rate base since the charging infrastructure, unlike general poles and wires, does not provide a benefit to all electricity consumers. Nonetheless, many LDCs would like to provide this service to consumers. A lot of LDCs have unregulated affiliate companies, and the thinking was that these affiliates might be able to own/operate EVSE with the sticking point that the affiliate does not have an electricity distribution license. This statement was meant to address that. A better approach, and one that most LDCs are lobbying for, is an amendment allowing LDCs to own/operate EVSE directly (i.e. not a side business in an affiliate) with an appropriate OEB-approved rate. It just makes sense for utilities to be able to own/operate EVSE, especially street-side stations where there is no building to attach an electrical service to.

The other issue, and perhaps an even bigger one, is the federal Measurement Canada metrology regulations that I mentioned previously. I don't see how Tesla can get around that.

I have heard that there are some European countries with similar issues, and that Tesla has already said they will charge by the minute there, and by kWh in countries where regulations permit. This is how many ChargePoint stations in Ontario already operate (charged by the minute... some after a free period of time, others from the get-go).

 

[Canuck]

Yes, I do... The other issue, and perhaps an even bigger one, is the federal Measurement Canada metrology regulations that I mentioned previously. I don't see how Tesla can get around that.

I have faith that they will cut the red tape and regulations, for EV's only, for the sake of our children and our children's children. But your point is well taken and when it comes to bureaucracy, I probably should not have any faith.

 

[Aussie Bob]

I'll just charge at home or use a Supercharger free. I don't do many long distance trips and the ones that I do have Superchargers along the way. I plan on leaving my house with a 80 - 90% charge everyday so I doubt I will need to worry about pay per use stations.

This is my situation as well.

 

[hingisfan]

This is my situation as well.

I go to Ottawa on occasion, so it may come in handy.