250000 miles on a 90D

[Zocke]

Hello everybody,

I´m new here and 3 month ago a bought a 2016 model S 90D.
I wanted to share some info about my car that seems to be a bit unusual.

The car has been a taxi in Stockholm, Sweden between December 2016 and December 2020.
I bought it in February 2021 from a regular car dealership. I had been looking for over a year and since there are so few Teslas in Sweden,
I assumed that I had to look around in Europe to find the right car, but the health situation has made it impossible.
When this car was turned up for sale, I saw that it was of low interest due to its background. The car salesman did not know anything at all about the car, so I bought it at a very good price. It is equipped with AP1, free supercharging, premium audio and premium connectivity.

The screenshot is from Scan my Tesla and there are some numbers that sticks out:

Nominal remaining 73.8 kWh out of nominal full pack 73.8 kWh
Supercharging 89989 kWh out of total charge 124137 kWh
The car has been supercharged 72% of its 1682 charge cycles.

I have been confirmed from Tesla support that the battery has not been changed and the sticker shows its the original battery that came with the car.

I have started a YouTube channel to show people how old tesla age and what the quality of Teslas is and how they hold up after many miles.
Please have a look and support my new channel by subscribing to it.

Sorry for my long first post

 

[UrsS]

Very interesting. I'm curious how this continues. Please report periodically. Wish I had a battery like that one in mine (85) - it is at 84% after 8 1/2 years.

 

[SageBrush]

Nominal remaining 73.8 kWh out of nominal full pack 73.8 kWh

Expected at full charge. Find the entry 'capacity when new' or something labeled close to that for the information you seek.

By the way, Tesla gets quite a bit of flack for labeling models with numbers that kinda sorta imply the new battery capacity but are often not. So far as I know though, the discrepancy has never been anywhere near 16 kWh !

As an aside, please let us know your max charging kW. The large number of Supercharging sessions may mean your car is nerfed. It varies by model but I cannot remember specifics.

 

[ucmndd]

This was an impressively long preamble to basically get some likes and subscribes - but as @SageBrush pointed out, what you seem to be claiming about degradation just isn’t true.

your 90kwh battery was 85.8kwh when new (81.8 usable). Not 73.8.

 

[gaswalla]

OP now has a 75D...

 

[SageBrush]

your 90kwh battery was 85.8kwh when new (81.8 usable). Not 73.8.

So about 10% degradation ? Impressive result for a car used as a taxi 400k Supercharged km.

 

[Zocke]

Expected at full charge. Find the entry 'capacity when new' or something labeled close to that for the information you seek.

Such a possibility does not exist and has never existed, unfortunately. It would have made the discussion so much easier and shorter

By the way, Tesla gets quite a bit of flack for labeling models with numbers that kinda sorta imply the new battery capacity but are often not. So far as I know though, the discrepancy has never been anywhere near 16 kWh !

On the contrary, the numbers do not tell how big the battery pack really is in the same way as the BMW 540i has a 3.0 liter engine. These are just numbers for marketing.

As an aside, please let us know your max charging kW. The large number of Supercharging sessions may mean your car is nerfed. It varies by model but I cannot remember specifics.

I have only charged in coldish weather, so far and I can regularly see charging effects of over 140 Kw.

 

[Zocke]

This was an impressively long preamble to basically get some likes and subscribes - but as @SageBrush pointed out, what you seem to be claiming about degradation just isn’t true.

Yes it was. I'm sorry if it's a violation of forum rules?
That's just the way I am. I prefer a small group of smart people to a bunch of Karen who have no idea what they're talking about.
That's why I advertise in this forum.

your 90kwh battery was 85.8kwh when new (81.8 usable). Not 73.8.

Can you please tell me where you have found that information. I have searched and the only referense to that number is from Jason Hughes to Electrek in dec. 2016. To my knowledge , that figure could not be repeated but I have seen:

Charging 0-1% - 100% 74.7-74.9 Kw @ 100% efficiency supercharging or 85% efficiency home charger

Driving - utilized Kw 74.6.74.9 Kw 100% - 0-1%

So I have recorded a half dozen charges from 0-1% upto 100% to see how much I actually charged the battery, the answer 74.7 - 74.9 Kw
Accordingly when I view the trip meter I expended exactly the same amount between charging on an uninterrupted road trip.

 

[Zocke]

Very interesting. I'm curious how this continues. Please report periodically. Wish I had a battery like that one in mine (85) - it is at 84% after 8 1/2 years.

In the video I drive 436 Km and the stated range when new was 470 km,
Thats a 7% difference and my starting temperature was 12 degree centigrade / 53 degree Fahrenheit.
I believe the general average temperature where you live and the car is has a big impact on the well-being and life of the battery.
Maybe hot weather is more devastating than supercharging? Where do you live and what is your weather ?

 

[SageBrush]

Such a possibility does not exist and has never existed, unfortunately. It would have made the discussion so much easier and shorter

Surprise ! Your birthday came early. The screen capture is from my Model 3

 

[Zocke]

Surprise ! Your birthday came early. The screen capture is from my Model 3

View attachment 668428

What! Amazing, I am gobsmacked.
How come I can not see it? Is there a difference if you have model S and model 3?
Is there anyone else who uses Scan my Tesla for model S and can see the same information as SageBrush?

Thank you for showing me. Now I have some more digging to do

 

[SageBrush]

What! Amazing, I am gobsmacked.

No worries, we all started out as Newbies.
Although most of us started out with less ... let's call it 'self confidence.'

 

[Zocke]

No worries, we all started out as Newbies.
Although most of us started out with less ... let's call it 'self confidence.'

Point taken I dont want to come across as an ass****.

 

[SageBrush]

A bit more clarity re: your OP

'Nominal Full Pack' * SoC = 'Nominal Remaining' + Reserve_buffer

The reserve_buffer starts at zero when the pack is fully charged, and increases to 4.5% of 'Nominal Full Pack' at a reported SoC of 0%
So when the battery is fully charged (and only then),
'Nominal Full Pack' = 'Nominal Remaining.'

 

[Adri]

What! Amazing, I am gobsmacked.
How come I can not see it? Is there a difference if you have model S and model 3?
Is there anyone else who uses Scan my Tesla for model S and can see the same information as SageBrush?

Thank you for showing me. Now I have some more digging to do

The full pack when new is only available for a Model 3.
A Model S and X don't have this information and it doesn't show in SMT.

 

[bedoig]

The full pack when new is only available for a Model 3.
A Model S and X don't have this information and it doesn't show in SMT.

I can't find it now, but didn't @amund7 basically say that value seemed to be hardcoded for every vehicle with the same battery pack (ie, not really a representation of your true capacity when new)? I seem to recall some discussion about whether it was of much value to include in the app.

 

[amund7]

I can't find it now, but didn't @amund7 basically say that value seemed to be hardcoded for every vehicle with the same battery pack (ie, not really a representation of your true capacity when new)? I seem to recall some discussion about whether it was of much value to include in the app.

It is useful when there are new battery packs coming, you can already tell the difference (with this signal) between the 2021 3P, 2021 3 LR, and the 3 LFP batteries, as well as SR+. Not sure what the Y says, and if it also got more capacity in 2021, we'll see some reports from those owners too after a while I suppose

The discussions were about the 'battery degradation' that I calculated in the app. As Bjørn and others stressed, that signal (capacity when new) is not correct to calculate degradation from, as it is higher than the 'rated' capacity, which we don't know, and therefore the 'degradation' would show something like 3% already after a week or two. I eventually agreed It was not incorrect, and have removed that calculation from the latest app versions.

- Amund7

 

[amund7]

A bit more clarity re: your OP

'Nominal Full Pack' * SoC = 'Nominal Remaining' + Reserve_buffer

The reserve_buffer starts at zero when the pack is fully charged, and increases to 4.5% of 'Nominal Full Pack' at a reported SoC of 0%
So when the battery is fully charged (and only then),
'Nominal Full Pack' = 'Nominal Remaining.'

This is incorrect, buffer is constant, or really scaling with degradation / along with Nominal Full Pack. At 0% you have 'buffer' left of Nominal Remaining.
So 'Usable' (in SMT) = nominal remaining - buffer.
Also, 'buffer' is something Tesla has set rather randomly, just to give enough buffer that nobody runs out of juice at 0%. It's really just an offset they chose for showing 0% and 0 miles range.

This does not mean you can't use any of the buffer, you can, but unknown when the car will shut down (when one cell group reaches a certain limit, that we probably don't know for sure). Use with caution

Shown visually in Scan My Tesla for IOS, and also the current beta version for Android (Model S will lack the red bit at the right):

Sorry to hijack the thread, I just felt this needed to be explained

 

[SageBrush]

This is incorrect, buffer is constant, or really scaling with degradation / along with Nominal Full Pack. At 0% you have 'buffer' left of Nominal Remaining.
So 'Usable' (in SMT) = nominal remaining - buffer.

Thanks for chiming in!

I appreciate the graph, and it makes sense. At least for me, the disconnect occurs when I try to correlate SMT with the 'miles remaining' meter on the car's display. E.g, my Model 3 LR has a rated miles consumption of 237 Wh/mile hardwired. When I charge to full I see 308 miles of range which corresponds to 308*0.237 = 73 kWh **

So when the car is fully charged, the buffer is included in the rated miles calculation
Once I have depleted the battery charge to 0 rated miles remaining, a buffer of 73*0.045/0.237 miles remain in the battery that are usable (with the caveats you mentioned.)

I realize that your are not responsible for Tesla. Perhaps the confusion here is that 'usable' in SMT is not always the same as 'rated miles' on the screen display.


**Yes, you used my car for your graph example

 

[SageBrush]

As Bjørn and others stressed, that signal (capacity when new) is not correct to calculate degradation from, as it is higher than the 'rated' capacity, which we don't know, and therefore the 'degradation' would show something like 3% already after a week or two. I eventually agreed It was not incorrect, and have removed that calculation from the latest app versions.

Is the difference between 'capacity when new' and 'nominal full' when new the brick reserve ?