4680 cell implications

[swengl]

It's amazing to me that, in the aftermath of Battery Day, no one has really focused on the charging implications of the new cell design. The chart presented, if accurate, would indicate that the 4680 cells should take almost no time to fully charge. If that is the case, the bottleneck will move to the charging infrastructure itself and the amount of energy it can transfer. The fact that the CyberTruck and the Semi would be the only vehicles (initially, at least) to receive the new cell design also makes me wonder if Elon has something else up his sleeve for the rest of the fleet, that will still use the 2170 and the 18650 cells. If I were a betting man, I would put some money on the integration/use of supercapacitors.

 

[Cyber_Dav]

Few believe supercaps have any place in the power electronics. They capture and release bursts of energy, so maybe regen and ludicrous mode helpers.

My question is, if the new cells are not ready when Cybertruck starts production, will early Cybertrucks be orphans with lower spec batteries?

 

[dazedNconfuzed]

Clarify the “almost no time” deduction.

(I’m still trying to wrap my head around the battery chemistry. Didn’t occur to me to consider time factors yet.)

 

[JG T3SLA]

Few believe supercaps have any place in the power electronics. They capture and release bursts of energy, so maybe regen and ludicrous mode helpers.

My question is, if the new cells are not ready when Cybertruck starts production, will early Cybertrucks be orphans with lower spec batteries?

That's a good question. I'd be inclined to delay purchase a bit to get the new batteries. Seems to be a non trivial upgrade so worth the wait. My presumption is that the ranges quoted for the CT, especially the tri motor, are dependent on these new batteries.

 

[swengl]

Clarify the “almost no time” deduction.

(I’m still trying to wrap my head around the battery chemistry. Didn’t occur to me to consider time factors yet.)

The actual amount of time has not been revealed, but this image gives you some idea of the drastic reduction in time to charge.

 

[swengl]

Few believe supercaps have any place in the power electronics. They capture and release bursts of energy, so maybe regen and ludicrous mode helpers.

My question is, if the new cells are not ready when Cybertruck starts production, will early Cybertrucks be orphans with lower spec batteries?

I won't buy a CT unless it has the newer cells, I will gladly wait a bit longer for that improvement, if needed.

 

[swengl]

The actual amount of time has not been revealed, but this image gives you some idea of the drastic reduction in time to charge.View attachment 591966

. After looking at this, it may not be as drastic a reduction as I had thought/hoped. The current battery diameters are 18 and 21mm respectively and the chart starts at the 21mm. Oh well

 

[swengl]

Few believe supercaps have any place in the power electronics. They capture and release bursts of energy, so maybe regen and ludicrous mode helpers.

My question is, if the new cells are not ready when Cybertruck starts production, will early Cybertrucks be orphans with lower spec batteries?

Here's an article that details some of the other potential uses for supercapacitors and EVs. What is a supercapacitor? The next step for EVs and hybrids explained

 

[MP3Mike]

The chart shows that it is actually slower. Just not as slow as sizing the "tabbed" design up to 46x80.

 

[brkaus]

My question is, if the new cells are not ready when Cybertruck starts production, will early Cybertrucks be orphans with lower spec batteries?

Every EV is an orphan with a lower spec battery pretty quick. Batteries and the configuration of batteries are always improving.

 

[Watts_Up]

Few believe supercaps have any place in the power electronics.
They capture and release bursts of energy, so maybe regen and ludicrous mode helpers.

My question is, if the new cells are not ready when Cybertruck starts production,
will early Cybertrucks be orphans with lower spec batteries?

You can still use it down the hill.... unless Nikola Motors patented it and would sue Tesla !!!

 

[swengl]

The chart shows that it is actually slower. Just not as slow as sizing the "tabbed" design up to 46x80.

It goes a bit against reason that even though the tabless cells don't have the same heat mgmt issues that the existing cells have, they would take longer to charge. Having many points of contact (being tabless) and thus reducing the distance the energy has to travel would also make you think: this should charge faster than existing cells. The way the current packs are charged, once they are above ~75% charged the charge rate slows to help manage the heat to protect the pack from damage, something that the new cells reportedly won't have to do. Any thoughts as to why all of this would result in a slower charge for the new cells?

 

[mongo]

It goes a bit against reason that even though the tabless cells don't have the same heat mgmt issues that the existing cells have, they would take longer to charge. Having many points of contact (being tabless) and thus reducing the distance the energy has to travel would also make you think: this should charge faster than existing cells. The way the current packs are charged, once they are above ~75% charged the charge rate slows to help manage the heat to protect the pack from damage, something that the new cells reportedly won't have to do. Any thoughts as to why all of this would result in a slower charge for the new cells?

The chart is normalized to make the 21mm speeds identical for the twp types. It's purpose is to show the relative impact on charge speed vs diameter for each specific type, not to compare the speeds of the two types. Otherwise, a 15mm tabbed would extrapolate to be faster than a 15mm tabless.

 

[bluhorshue]

I think this chart shows that while a tabless battery charges much faster than a battery with a tab, doesn't it also show that a larger diameter battery takes LONGER to charge. This difference is greatly minimized because it is tabless, but it is still a longer amount of time. The bigger battery suggests slower supercharging, not faster. Maybe this is offset by the energy capacity, but without units I don't think you can draw the conclusion that the new batteries will charge faster, and if anything they might charge slower.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The chart shows that it is actually slower. Just not as slow as sizing the "tabbed" design up to 46x80.

Well, it's slower to charge a cell, but if the cells allow for significantly increased energy density, increased power density and are much cheaper, then you'd be paying the same amount for more range and faster charging, or paying much less for about the same charging but with more range, or somewhere in between.

Personally, I'll take a cheap long-range electric that's a bit slower to charge.

 

[mark95476]

Yes. This graph is saying charge times increases on the new tabless cells are decoupled or virtually independent of the cell size.

I think charge times on the tabless cells will be faster for the same amount of energy (100 kWh). I expect them to be able to sustain higher charge rates for longer.

The chart is normalized to make the 21mm speeds identical for the twp types. It's purpose is to show the relative impact on charge speed vs diameter for each specific type, not to compare the speeds of the two types. Otherwise, a 15mm tabbed would extrapolate to be faster than a 15mm tabless.

 

[mark95476]

It won't. I can see them using the existing proven chemistry and sizing up the cells to get significant immediate benefits on existing products.

It goes a bit against reason that even though the tabless cells don't have the same heat mgmt issues that the existing cells have, they would take longer to charge. Having many points of contact (being tabless) and thus reducing the distance the energy has to travel would also make you think: this should charge faster than existing cells. The way the current packs are charged, once they are above ~75% charged the charge rate slows to help manage the heat to protect the pack from damage, something that the new cells reportedly won't have to do. Any thoughts as to why all of this would result in a slower charge for the new cells?

 

[CyberGus]

Personally, I'll take a cheap long-range electric that's a bit slower to charge.

If a battery pack can be charged from 10% to 90% in the same time it takes to fill a gas tank, say 10 minutes, then Range Anxiety Syndrome drops to zero. That's big ask (400 amps! lol) but incremental improvements in charge rate will improve BEV adoption.

 

[MP3Mike]

That's big ask (400 amps! lol) but incremental improvements in charge rate will improve BEV adoption.

Tesla already runs greater than 600 amps into the packs on the current vehicles, it just ramps down fairly quickly because of heat issues.

 

[Swampgator]

I think this thing should be able to charge at 3C rate. That means if it's a 200 kwh pack it can charge theoretically the whole pack in 20 min. More likely to 80% in 20 min with taper. 400 miles of range in 15 minutes is pretty damn impressive.