4680 Model Ys?

[voip-ninja]

Sorry if this has been asked already and I missed it. Does any one know about the 4680 battery behaviours? Can it be charged to 100% without damaging the life of the batteries like (LFP)? Does it charge any faster (all the way to full)? And any other benefits I may not know about, please share.

This information is readily available by searching this forum or using a search engine like DuckDuckGo or Google.

Bottom line is that most of the benefit of the new cell technology is to Tesla through eventual lower manufacturing costs and being able to use less batteries that are lighter to achieve the same range in their vehicles.

I'm not aware of any advantages to end users, it has been hinted that the degradation over time with the new cells might be slightly better than the old ones, but I don't know that this has really been confirmed.

Charging any of these batteries to 100% will always result in faster degradation of battery life.

Everything You Need To Know About Tesla's New 4680 Battery Cell - CleanTechnica

Tesla didn't hold back at Battery Day, announcing a new tabless 4680 cell form factor, among many other things.

cleantechnica.com

 

[Ogre]

Sorry if this has been asked already and I missed it. Does any one know about the 4680 battery behaviours? Can it be charged to 100% without damaging the life of the batteries like (LFP)? Does it charge any faster (all the way to full)? And any other benefits I may not know about, please share.

What you are talking about involves battery chemistry more than form factor.

A high energy density, highly stable chemistry is sort of the holy grail of battery tech.

Right now you have LFP which can charge up to 100%, but is too heavy for many applications, and nickel cells which are more energy dense but a bit more fragile and sensitive to over-charging.

 

[TomServo]

Y don’t you get model S then?

If I win the lotto than yes, but for now a $30K difference is a bridge too far.

 

[tangible1]

What you are talking about involves battery chemistry more than form factor.

A high energy density, highly stable chemistry is sort of the holy grail of battery tech.

Right now you have LFP which can charge up to 100%, but is too heavy for many applications, and nickel cells which are more energy dense but a bit more fragile and sensitive to over-charging.

Chemistry, materials science, manufacturability and cost.
Pick any two.

 

[Terminator857]

... Can it be charged to 100% without damaging the life of the batteries like (LFP)?

Same behavior but due to increased energy density you might get a bigger battery someday for same price, so less of a need to charge to 100%. Example 425 mile range battery charged to 80% is 340 miles which is similar to current Model Y charging to 100%.

Does it charge any faster (all the way to full)? And any other benefits I may not know about, please share.

Yes if Tesla decides to trickle down their savings to end customer and give us a bigger battery. Perhaps a couple of years away or more. Tesla needs to recoup the large investment first.
4680 battery has less resistance but that may just compensate for being a bigger cell which has disadvantages.

For mass manufacturing the price of a product approaches the cost of material. If energy density increases then cost goes down, since you need less material for same amount of energy storage.

 

[waffle07]

This information is readily available by searching this forum or using a search engine like DuckDuckGo or Google.

Bottom line is that most of the benefit of the new cell technology is to Tesla through eventual lower manufacturing costs and being able to use less batteries that are lighter to achieve the same range in their vehicles.

I'm not aware of any advantages to end users, it has been hinted that the degradation over time with the new cells might be slightly better than the old ones, but I don't know that this has really been confirmed.

Charging any of these batteries to 100% will always result in faster degradation of battery life.

Everything You Need To Know About Tesla's New 4680 Battery Cell - CleanTechnica

Tesla didn't hold back at Battery Day, announcing a new tabless 4680 cell form factor, among many other things.

cleantechnica.com

Less weight equals better acceleration, handling, braking, range, etc.

 

[Smitty79]

Sorry if this has been asked already and I missed it. Does any one know about the 4680 battery behaviours? Can it be charged to 100% without damaging the life of the batteries like (LFP)? Does it charge any faster (all the way to full)? And any other benefits I may not know about, please share.

In the earnings call, Drew said the LFP batteries didn't lend themselves well to 4680 form factor. LFP has a poor energy per volume compared to trinary batteries, like NCA and NCM. The reason for cylindrical batteries is for fire resistance. Combined with trinary (I hope I got this word right), it yields a safe, longer range car. 4680, is a better form factor for trinary. LFP is usually used in prismatic batteries to cram more active material into a given volume.

 

[voip-ninja]

Less weight equals better acceleration, handling, braking, range, etc.

That's quite a leap considering we don't know how big the weight difference would be or how it would be distributed.

You "might" get those things in a form noticeable to drivers or you might not.

For the range piece it is speculation right now on if Tesla will increase the range when they switch over to the new cells or if they'll simply use fewer cells and keep the range the same which would reduce their costs and improve their battery supply.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Other than being lighter for same-energy-storage, the thing consumer's might notice about a 4680 pack is from the "tabless" cell design - it may reduce resistive losses and allow faster charging / easier thermal management. But that's just conjecture. No one has seen actual numbers from a fully realized 4680 pack.

 

[howardnj]

$28.8K EV6 - where is this?
Don't EV6's start at $40.9K...

My daughter (looking to trade ICE car to EV) has a 2018 Elantra she bought $21K in Sep 2017 now at 20K miles got offered $21K. Only $9K more for a new EV6 if rebates and credits get it down to $30K.

Perhaps you can convince your daughter to move across the river to New Jersey where there is no sales tax on EVs and other discounts on tolls?

 

[voip-ninja]

Other than being lighter for same-energy-storage, the thing consumer's might notice about a 4680 pack is from the "tabless" cell design - it may reduce resistive losses and allow faster charging / easier thermal management. But that's just conjecture. No one has seen actual numbers from a fully realized 4680 pack.

I can't find it now but there was a recent article that was comparing the two floorpan designs for the MY and I believe it was believed that despite earlier information the new pack structure would still be a tabbed design.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

I can't find it now but there was a recent article that was comparing the two floorpan designs for the MY and I believe it was believed that despite earlier information the new pack structure would still be a tabbed design.

It's the cell which goes "tabless" - not the pack. Basically they have a spiral of continuous tabs at the top and bottom of the cell so the electrons don't have to travel so far. It makes the cell more efficient. You still have to arrange the cells into a pack, albeit there'd be fewer cells in the larger 4860 format.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

This: https://assets.rebelmouse.io/eyJ0eX...t5VXrIYfAGnNRmD5ot8g97JzQYx2YEqV1ma8A/img.jpg

 

[voip-ninja]

This: https://assets.rebelmouse.io/eyJ0eX...t5VXrIYfAGnNRmD5ot8g97JzQYx2YEqV1ma8A/img.jpg

Yes, I've seen that cutaway of what the new cells look like. Potentially I'm confused but I recall reading the article which was talking about the design of the new pack where it becomes integral structure to the vehicle and becomes what the seats bolt to. Thought it specifically mentioned both cooling system and wiring changes and it was indicated that instead of the cells being slot lotted which had been speculated there were still going to be tabs added to the cells.

 

[danjw1]

Yes, I've seen that cutaway of what the new cells look like. Potentially I'm confused but I recall reading the article which was talking about the design of the new pack where it becomes integral structure to the vehicle and becomes what the seats bolt to. Thought it specifically mentioned both cooling system and wiring changes and it was indicated that instead of the cells being slot lotted which had been speculated there were still going to be tabs added to the cells.

Yes, the 4680 cells will be used in structural battery packs. It will add rigidity to the car and be built in as the floor of the vehicle. These cells are reported to not have any external tab. Externally, they are metal cylinders.

 

[Ogre]

Yes, the 4680 cells will be used in structural battery packs. It will add rigidity to the car and be built in as the floor of the vehicle. These cells are reported to not have any external tab. Externally, they are metal cylinders.

They have a nipple on top like many batteries do. They have metal clips that connect to the tops without having to solder/ weld them on.

 

[Terminator857]

Elon says Model Y structural battery pack is next level:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492571458861731846

 

[Zebelkhan]

Elon says Model Y structural battery pack is next level:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492571458861731846

 

[ilovemytdi]

Not a single one of them would be able to tell the difference. It’s also a sure bet as much complaining as there has been about panel gaps etc that Fremont’s quality has improved quite a bit and cars out of Austin could be spotty for awhile. On the paint, who knows.

How do you know if anyone would be able to tell the difference? We do not have the specs of the new 4680 MY. What if tesla does a MY Maxx, with 400+ miles range with 350KW max charging. Or they could keep all MY's basically the same range whether they have 4680's or 2170's but we dont have a clue what Tesla is going to do. I think it would be smart for them to sell a MY maxx model and produce it exclusively at Austin, charge 10-15k more per car and probably cost them less than current LR MY's do. I would pay 10k more for an extra 100 miles range. Then when they get freemont changed over to 4680's they can produce them at both factories.

 

[Ogre]

How do you know if anyone would be able to tell the difference? We do not have the specs of the new 4680 MY. What if tesla does a MY Maxx, with 400+ miles range with 350KW max charging. Or they could keep all MY's basically the same range whether they have 4680's or 2170's but we dont have a clue what Tesla is going to do. I think it would be smart for them to sell a MY maxx model and produce it exclusively at Austin, charge 10-15k more per car and probably cost them less than current LR MY's do. I would pay 10k more for an extra 100 miles range. Then when they get freemont changed over to 4680's they can produce them at both factories.

We’ve already seen Model Ys rolling around in Texas with Model Y LR wheels on them.

Its starting to look more and more like they are going to release both the Performance and LR varieties at the same time.

We’ve also seen Model Y front castings in Fremont.

My feeling is they are stockpiling Model Ys, both varieties, in Texas and once they get certifications squared, they are going to shut down Fremont and transition it to produce 4680 Model Ys also. During the down-time in Fremont they just crank out the Model Ys from the backlog they’ve been creating in Texas.

We’ve also seen cars hitting the Supercharger and going back into the warehouse. They have a covered parking lot with millions of square feet to hide cars in.