500 + Mile Range Debate

[Giampigua]

If there were more energy dense options, you don't think Tesla would be using them?

Outside of Lucid, which is a more efficient car than the S, what car even competes with the MS or M3 in range?

I think they should. This is what I hope.
Better to say: more energy dense options exist.
What I don’t know is if they are simply waiting for competitors to offer more range before increasing theirs, or if they deny the argument.
Till 2/3 years ago Tesla was emphasising each small range progress. See for example the MS LONG RANGE +, or the plaid +, or the “battery day”.
Lately they started saying that more range is useless…

 

[beatle]

If there were more energy dense options, you don't think Tesla would be using them?

Outside of Lucid, which is a more efficient car than the S, what car even competes with the MS or M3 in range?

Pouch/prismatic have more energy density in a pack due to how they can be packaged, but Tesla sticks to cylindrical cells as they are more stable:

Big honkin' cells also create bigger problems when they fizzle out, whereas the loss of a comparatively smaller cell will make very little difference. Rivian also uses cylindrical cells, though with a traditional truck design, it's not very efficient. Still manages over 300 miles of range though.

I would not sleep on the Mercedes EQS 450+, 500, and 580, BMW i7 and i4, and even the Taycan 4S with it's incredibly pessimistic estimate will go the distance.

 

[JBT66]

I have a X LR Plus currently. I’ve had 3’s and Ys in the past and the slowed charging speed was a little annoying. The timing on the other cars was good with V3 the X it’s a bit longer than needed and on the longer spans slowed the trips a bit.
Anyways 500 probably isn’t needed but real world 400 would be great. The weather can really lower the mileage.

 

[DanCar]

Lease your 500 mile range car for $1K a month.

It's Possible To Lease A Lucid Air Grand Touring For Just $604 Per Month | Carscoops

The Lucid Air Grand Touring typically carries a $135,750 MSRP but leasing a 2023 example is a good option

www.carscoops.com

 

[Cheburashka]

Lease your 500 mile range car for $1K a month.

It's Possible To Lease A Lucid Air Grand Touring For Just $604 Per Month | Carscoops

The Lucid Air Grand Touring typically carries a $135,750 MSRP but leasing a 2023 example is a good option

www.carscoops.com

For $604 a month it's worth it, I'd go lease one today. For $1200 a month it is not.

 

[chinney]

I have been doing many more road trips in our Model 3 over the last 6 months (doing one now) and agree with the perspective expressed in some earlier posts in this thread that 500+ range is probably not necessary for most people and most applications. Unless battery technology changes so that extra energy capacity becomes a lot less resource intensive and a lot cheaper, I would not pay the premium for a car with a 500+ mile range because range at that level would be of little or no practical benefit for my own driving.

That said, I would like to see a Model 3 with real world 400 mile range - that would be the sweet spot for me. The newer Model 3 vehicles are not far off from having that range, at least theoretically, though less so in realistic real world driving. Presumably some improvements in battery technology would be necessary even to hit my own target 400 mile range for a reasonably priced Model 3. I do hope that will be coming though.

I would add that even the more limited real world range of my 2020 Model 3 still makes road trips very feasible. I salute the Tesla charging network! And the Model 3 is an awesome highway car - a joy to drive.

 

[Giampigua]

I have been doing many more road trips in our Model 3 over the last 6 months (doing one now) and agree with the perspective expressed in some earlier posts in this thread that 500+ range is probably not necessary for most people and most applications. Unless battery technology changes so that extra energy capacity becomes a lot less resource intensive and a lot cheaper, I would not pay the premium for a car with a 500+ mile range because range at that level would be of little or no practical benefit for my own driving.

That said, I would like to see a Model 3 with real world 400 mile range - that would be the sweet spot for me. The newer Model 3 vehicles are not far off from having that range, at least theoretically, though less so in realistic real world driving. Presumably some improvements in battery technology would be necessary even to hit my own target 400 mile range for a reasonably priced Model 3. I do hope that will be coming though.

I would add that even the more limited real world range of my 2020 Model 3 still makes road trips very feasible. I salute the Tesla charging network! And the Model 3 is an awesome highway car - a joy to drive.

I appreciate what you say...
Of course it all depends on personal situation.
A real world range of 400 miles would be perfect to me. The point is that when we refer to EPA or WLTP based range (or as someone here sarcastically called "Tesla range") we need a kind of "conversion rate" ,which stays probably between 25 to 30 %. At least with reference to European average highway speed.
Thus the equivalent EPA/WLTP range should be over 500 miles...
Which is something that Lucid and the new EQS Sedan (coming this summer with new battery) achieve. And some models of Chinese producer too.
Hoping that Tesla will align: surely they can do it if they want.

 

[Watts_Up]

500+ range is probably not necessary for most people and most applications.

Maybe on a road trip where you will have a charger at your destination,
otherwise you need to be able to return to your last charging location.

So if you typically have 300 miles of range when at 100%,​

and you want to end your trip with 20%, so so have only 240 miles of range.​

​

If you cannot charge at your destination, then you will have only​

half of the range available, or 120 miles.​

​

Doing the same calculation with a 500 miles vehicle,​

the available range would be 200 miles.​

I like on weekend to go to some lookout in the mountain,​

so extra range is really needed.​

​

If a vehicle with an 80 kWh battery gets 300 miles of range,​

then you would nedd a 130 kWh battery to get 500 miles of range.​

I estimate that an extra 50 kWh battery would be a $10k to $15k option.​

I wonder where such battery could be installed, maybe under the feet​

of the rear passengers, like on the Lucid Air Dream Edition?​

I was considering then to use some solar panels on top of the car,
but this would not really give too much extra range:

If I could get 1 kW of solar energy,​

after 6 hours I would get 6 kWh or 18 miles.​

​

I noticed that the Aptera could get up to 30 miles​

of solar energy a day, but this car is ultralight.​

​

​

 

[GtiMart]

The scenario described here also assumes there's absolutely no charging on route to your destination (or back), otherwise you could top up while going or while coming back. It also assumes you cannot even charge on a 120V plug while you're parked.
I've done such a trip to a cabin in the woods a few times, but I could at least charge on a 120V plug using a 25 feet extension cord (of proper gauge) I keep in my trunk. If you stay long enough (say 10h or more) it gives valuable range back.

 

[chinney]

I appreciate what you say...
Of course it all depends on personal situation.
A real world range of 400 miles would be perfect to me. The point is that when we refer to EPA or WLTP based range (or as someone here sarcastically called "Tesla range") we need a kind of "conversion rate" ,which stays probably between 25 to 30 %. At least with reference to European average highway speed.
Thus the equivalent EPA/WLTP range should be over 500 miles...
Which is something that Lucid and the new EQS Sedan (coming this summer with new battery) achieve. And some models of Chinese producer too.
Hoping that Tesla will align: surely they can do it if they want.

My own experience of the correlation between 'Tesla range' and real world range perhaps has been somewhat better, though I admit it is affected by a lot of variables. In ideal freeway conditions - not very hot or (especially) not very cold outside temperatures, not raining or snowing, not too windy, and driving on cruise control no faster than 110 km/h (70 mph) - I can get the Tesla range in my Model 3. But change those factors and range decreases - sometimes steeply, depending on the particular factors or combination of them.

The above being said, I would be happy with even a 'Tesla range' of 400 miles for road trips, given that I am finding that such trips are pretty painless even in my 4 year old Model 3 which has considerably less than even a Tesla range of 400 miles. 400 miles of real world range would be even better, albeit one might argue about what combination of factors constitutes 'real world'. I guess my ultimate point is that I have been basically satisfied with my current Model 3 range for road trips, but a just bit more range without a big increase in price would be even better.

 

[KenBlub]

I wish I had your bladders. 400 miles is over 5 hours of constant driving at 75MPH. I’m not making it 5 hours with a break of some sort

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

Guys, it's not the straight 400 miles range that's important, it's the 10% SOC to 70% SOC which is what would be significant with a 400 mile range Tesla. Not sure what the speed would be at a SC for such a charge, but would guess in the 15 minute range. Good stuff.

Rich

 

[DblOSmith]

I wish I had your bladders. 400 miles is over 5 hours of constant driving at 75MPH. I’m not making it 5 hours with a break of some sort

Same. 3-4 hours MAX.

 

[Watts_Up]

Unless there will be superchargers every 50 to 100 miles, to be able to replace ICEs or and PHEVs, EVs will need to get get more range.

Have you ever try to travel in Montana with an EV?

For many years I would like to viisit the Glacier National Park, but I would have to rent an ICE to do that.

 

[Ben W]

Unless there will be superchargers every 50 to 100 miles, to be able to replace ICEs or and PHEVs, EVs will need to get get more range.

Have you ever try to travel in Montana with an EV?

For many years I would like to viisit the Glacier National Park, but I would have to rent an ICE to do that.

We recently did a 3500-mile roundtrip from CA to TX in our Model Y LR, to see the solar eclipse. In general the 300-mile range felt just fine, though there were a few times we really wished it were 400+. One of the waypoints we had originally hoped to visit [Canyon de Chelly in Arizona] turned out to be impractical; it would have required a 260-mile leg on a single charge, which was just out of our comfort zone. At a different point, an overcrowded and underpowered Supercharger (advertised 250kW but for some reason throttled to 72kW, with one of the eight chargers out of order) caused a long line and 2-hour delay; with a longer range we would have had the option to skip this charger and head to the next one. At other times, the necessity of topping up near 100% felt annoyingly slow.

I also have a 2017 Model 3, which I plan to upgrade in a few years to a 400-mile Model S. (Holding out for: improved battery chemistry, bidirectional charging, body design refresh, FSD HW5.) The 400-mile range would make these trips feel a lot easier, although increasing the Supercharger density and filling in more out-of-the-way routes would also do so. If there were working 250kW Superchargers every 50 miles along most routes, then >300mi range would feel a lot less important I think.

 

[Ben W]

Guys, it's not the straight 400 miles range that's important, it's the 10% SOC to 70% SOC which is what would be significant with a 400 mile range Tesla. Not sure what the speed would be at a SC for such a charge, but would guess in the 15 minute range. Good stuff.

Exactly. My Model Y LR has a 310-mile range at 100%. From 10% to 70%, that's a 186-mile rated range. Less 20% for weather conditions and real-world driving, that's a 150-mile realistic comfortable range. During a recent long roadtrip, any stretches longer than about 160 miles felt like they required careful planning and excessive wait time; our longest leg was just over 200 miles, which induced some range anxiety and required some speed adjustments.

With the current Supercharger infrastructure, having a 400-mile range instead of 300 would make a very significant difference for me. Or with double the Supercharger density, which may exist in a few years, 300-mile range would be just fine. I hope Tesla is looking at the current pain points in the network and planning to build them out quickly.

 

[drtimhill]

IMO, the 500 mile range is a HUGE signal to the EV-reluctants. Do most "need" it?; definitely not. OTOH, comes in handy for towing.

Are long trips faster in an ICE? Can be, if you only stop for gas. Personally, I make a 400 mile trip every few months, with one stop of ~35 minutes for meal and bathroom. Works out great for us at this distance. But if I had to drive 1000 miles one way, a 35 minute stop every few hours would PIA.

Well I’ve done 1000+ mile trips and I enjoy the breaks to charge. Sure it adds maybe 2 hours to my trip .. so what? Is it REALLY so bad to take a few breaks? Chill out and enjoy the tech is my advice.

 

[nwdiver]

Unless there will be superchargers every 50 to 100 miles, to be able to replace ICEs or and PHEVs, EVs will need to get get more range.

Have you ever try to travel in Montana with an EV?

For many years I would like to viisit the Glacier National Park, but I would have to rent an ICE to do that.

Not many places left where there isn't a supercharger every 50 to 100 miles. That's a much better solution than larger battery packs.

They just started construction on a supercharger in Kalispell so Glacier will soon be accessible without too much effort.

 

[JBT66]

I’d take 400 mile Tesla estimated range so 325-350 real world. Hills, wind and speed really kill range. If you have even one of those fighting you currently it really hurts your range. I drove from AZ to VT to FL a couple of summers ago in a model Y so got to experience all these things. Over all I was happy with the trip but there were a few sections it would have been nice to be able push the car a little further.

 

[DblOSmith]

I’d take 400 mile Tesla estimated range so 325-350 real world. Hills, wind and speed really kill range. If you have even one of those fighting you currently it really hurts your range. I drove from AZ to VT to FL a couple of summers ago in a model Y so got to experience all these things. Over all I was happy with the trip but there were a few sections it would have been nice to be able push the car a little further.

That's the one thing that irks me. Elon is right that 99% of people will be perfect fine with 300mile car, or 300 miles CT... ...but people buy cars for the extreme they want, not by what they do 99% of time. Otherwise, the entire country would be driving in 30kwh Smart cars because that's all that's needed to take us to the office or grocery store. It's bereft of passion... and imagination. (bonus if you know where that line is from)

The CT has so much imagination and passion and greatness... to be saddled with only 300 miles and the extendo pack is just sad. That's what's most disappointing. 500 miles would have made a great truck fantastic. But it just lets the air out of a great truck... It has to be a pragmatic supply chain type issue for the company or something, not Elon saying "I know what you need and you only need this. Here you go." I could see that too, but... I dunno.