Given the FSD promises from Tesla, I would not hold my breath for increased range
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500 + Mile Range Debate
- Thread starter Kee_Chain
- Start date
My partner used to have an i3 for a while ... and for 90% of days, it's ~80 mile range was plenty. 200 nominal miles is plenty for dedicated city cars, and trends toward decadent for that market.
I personally see the Schelling points falling out at 500/350/220 for road trippers/general utility/city cars respectively, but I'm looking forward to see what actually happens.
It is unlikely that Tesla will deliver long range car anytime soon. Same as FSD.
dhrivnak
Active Member
When possible I alway take the Model 3. After about 4 hours I want a stretch, go to the rest room and get something to eat. Under the best situation that takes 45 min and the car is ready in 40 minutes. We cover 650 miles in a day no problem, no drama and really no more time than the gasser.
Driving on a flat ground, in the spring - yes. In the winter, on a mountain road my MS LR+ (EPA 402miles) turns into 200miles real range.
dhrivnak
Active Member
In the Midwest my “310” mile 2018 MP3 gets ~170 to 180 mi in fall/winter at normal hwy speeds.
I absolutely agree that my suggested future minimum standard of 300 miles even for an urban car is not actually needed for a car that is strictly used that way. But purchasers often don’t think of it like that. They think: ‘maybe one day I will want to go on a road trip’. They may only go on such a road trip with the vehicle once every 5 years, if that, but they like to think they could. From a practical perspective investing in a bigger battery for a once every 5 year trip probably does not make a lot of sense, and they would be better of renting a longer range vehicle for that one time. But from a *marketing* perspective, giving people the idea that they could do it if they want wins over strict logic. Marketing sells a lot of vehicles. That’s why you have ‘rugged’ SUVs and trucks in driveways of people who will never use their actual capabilities. From marketing perspective, I think the future minimum range will be about 300 miles for family vehicles even if at least some buyers will not really need that.
There is this thing about EV manufacturers mission - to help the environment. Not sure which one is worse - having larger batteries with single car or having small and large battery and two cars.
Good point. But there are a fair number of people who don’t go on long road trips whether they have one car or two. The last time I went on a road trip which involved 3 or more days in one direction was 40 years ago! The last time I went on a trip 2 or more days in one direction was 12 years ago. Even long overnight return car trips are a relative rarity for me, although I go frequently on short overnight or multiple day trips involving 100-200 miles in each direction, with the ability to reacharge at destination or (as not often is needed) along the way at a Supercharger. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate having a Model 3 with 300+ miles range. But strictly speaking, it is probably more than I need. And there are people with cars that road trip even less than I do, who use them only for urban travel. For most of them, strictly speaking, even 200 miles of range is probably overkill. That said, from a psychological perspective (for which we are marketed) people like me like the idea that we could take the car on a long trip, so we buy more range than we need. It would likely make more economic sense just to rent a long range car for 7-10 days for that extended car trip, if it ever happens.
13 pages of posts and 250 replies later (with a large number from 1 person), I'd think this debate would have been resolved. 
The bottom line is what is enough range for person A isn't necessarily going to be the same for person B, as we put on a different amount of mileage, drive different routes, and in differing speeds and conditions. Then there is the cost difference of larger batteries, which are already extremely expensive. It's these same differences that means an EV isn't the right tool for everyone, and long distance drivers may be better served with a regular gas or diesel vehicle.
Still, having more choices is a good thing provided there are enough buyers to make it economically worthwhile for the manufacturer.
So there's the answer, "it depends".
The bottom line is what is enough range for person A isn't necessarily going to be the same for person B, as we put on a different amount of mileage, drive different routes, and in differing speeds and conditions. Then there is the cost difference of larger batteries, which are already extremely expensive. It's these same differences that means an EV isn't the right tool for everyone, and long distance drivers may be better served with a regular gas or diesel vehicle.
Still, having more choices is a good thing provided there are enough buyers to make it economically worthwhile for the manufacturer.
So there's the answer, "it depends".
gtae07
Member
It depends how you define "road trip". For me, 3+ hours in the car is a "road trip", and we do that at least monthly.
The trip to our parents' houses is about 3:15 of actual driving. That usually becomes 3:45 including bathroom stops in an ICE vehicle. Playing with ABRP an LR M3 or MY can do it in about 4:10 during typical summer weather, with the caveat that there are no good charging options other than 120V once we get there, so I planned to arrive with some margin. A shorter-range vehicle is worse; the projection for a standard-range Lightning is about 5:20!
I think kilpatds and others are on the right track--people have uses and desires for things even when other people smugly and condescendingly insist "you don't NEED that, so you shoud want this instead". A minimalist will tell me I don't NEED all my tools and equipment because it just takes up space most of the time, and I can "just call someone" or "just go borrow/rent" instead. But the latter options are more trouble and stress even if they may be more "convenient" by some people's measure.
I would rather pay a little more for 300 mi usable range even if I don't "need" it day-to-day because the extra flexibility, short road trip convenience, and overall battery longevity are worth it to me.
The trip to our parents' houses is about 3:15 of actual driving. That usually becomes 3:45 including bathroom stops in an ICE vehicle. Playing with ABRP an LR M3 or MY can do it in about 4:10 during typical summer weather, with the caveat that there are no good charging options other than 120V once we get there, so I planned to arrive with some margin. A shorter-range vehicle is worse; the projection for a standard-range Lightning is about 5:20!
I think kilpatds and others are on the right track--people have uses and desires for things even when other people smugly and condescendingly insist "you don't NEED that, so you shoud want this instead". A minimalist will tell me I don't NEED all my tools and equipment because it just takes up space most of the time, and I can "just call someone" or "just go borrow/rent" instead. But the latter options are more trouble and stress even if they may be more "convenient" by some people's measure.
I would rather pay a little more for 300 mi usable range even if I don't "need" it day-to-day because the extra flexibility, short road trip convenience, and overall battery longevity are worth it to me.
EPA 402mi turns into 200 real miles in the winter mountains drive (actually, it 1/2 flat and 1/2 mountain). That is ~3hrs and we do it at least twice per month and rarely stop. For us that is not a “road trip” and I think this is a common use case.
Even with the 400mi EPA range we barely make it - if I have a roof rack I must stop and top up at a SC. Don’t get me wrong - I love the SC experience. But a quick 10-15 min stop easily turns into 30-40 min delay. As times go and the battery degraded I will have to make those stops.
So, 400mi was the threshold that allowed me to buy EV. 500mi will remove the “battery anxiety”.
I agree that more EV range would be useful for some people and I am looking forward to a future where it would readily available without making vehicles unreasonably expensive or heavy. As I have written before in this thread, I think that 400 miles eventually should be standard range for EVs, with a 500+ mile range option also being available, but with a 250-300 mile range option also offered for vehicles intended largely only for 'urban' usage. Basically, I am happy for people to get as much range as they want to pay for.
That said, I do think that many people imagine that they might want to go on long road rips far more often than they actually go. And for medium-short road trips - like the 'common use case' that you refer to - it is not as though stopping once at a Supercharger is any great hardship. I can understand that you would prefer not to stop, and that's fine, but having longer range for that common use case is more of a convenience than an actual need, assuming a Supercharger is available. I also think that extra range can be a marketing thing that caters to fear rather than the actual reality of most driving. There is a reason it is called 'range anxiety'.
On the other hand, I absolutely recognize that life situations are highly variable, that some people regularly drive long-distance trips, others drive medium-long distances in cold and or hilly terrain, that Superchargers are still not along all routes, that some people are regularly under tight schedules, and that some may want to pull a trailer, etc. So I absolute say 'bring on the longer range options!' for those that want it. I am expecting battery technology to improve fairly quickly in terms of expense and weight-to-kWh ratio to soon make longer-range EVs more easily achievable for manufacturers.
Don't forget that "Superchargers are still not along all routes" will in some cases be a massive understatement. When your travel goals are "head into the mountains", you're by intent heading to places that will basically never make sense for centrally-managed fast-chargers... and longer range allows you to just plain reach more places.
I think the range is absolutely necessary. For me personally, the only reason i don't have an EV yet is range.
For my daily work drives I drive a minimum of 150 miles a day, most commonly around 225 miles per day and sometimes up to around 310 miles in a day. I do this 5-6 days a week. There is one supercharger on my route and it is only 15 miles from my home. Not much help.
Would more superchargers be good? Absolutely. Is that the best solution for someone having to travel this much on a daily basis? Absolutely not, for several reasons.
1. Spending 15-30 minutes or more per day wastes a lot of time I need to be working or, at the end of the day, could be spending with my family. I'd rather be able to have enough range to do all my daily charging at home.
2. Paying for the supercharger daily adds up over time and negates a fair amount of savings by not having to purchase gas.
3. Superchargers degrade the battery quicker making the range issue just get worse and worse over time.
Now I understand that most people don't drive this much, but what reason is there not to offer it as an option for those that want it?
While for many people the value may not be there...the cost in dollars isn't worth it to them, to others it is and that isn't wrong.
I've seen people say that the data shows that tesla drivers don't drive that much that it is necessary and I'm sure that is true overall, but that can also be attributed to the fact that there are a lot of people out there that simply can't buy an EV because of the range issues.
I really don't understand why it is an argument. More options are better, buy what you need and let others get what they need. It doesn't negatively effect you if someone else spends their own money buying something that you personally don't need.
For my daily work drives I drive a minimum of 150 miles a day, most commonly around 225 miles per day and sometimes up to around 310 miles in a day. I do this 5-6 days a week. There is one supercharger on my route and it is only 15 miles from my home. Not much help.
Would more superchargers be good? Absolutely. Is that the best solution for someone having to travel this much on a daily basis? Absolutely not, for several reasons.
1. Spending 15-30 minutes or more per day wastes a lot of time I need to be working or, at the end of the day, could be spending with my family. I'd rather be able to have enough range to do all my daily charging at home.
2. Paying for the supercharger daily adds up over time and negates a fair amount of savings by not having to purchase gas.
3. Superchargers degrade the battery quicker making the range issue just get worse and worse over time.
Now I understand that most people don't drive this much, but what reason is there not to offer it as an option for those that want it?
While for many people the value may not be there...the cost in dollars isn't worth it to them, to others it is and that isn't wrong.
I've seen people say that the data shows that tesla drivers don't drive that much that it is necessary and I'm sure that is true overall, but that can also be attributed to the fact that there are a lot of people out there that simply can't buy an EV because of the range issues.
I really don't understand why it is an argument. More options are better, buy what you need and let others get what they need. It doesn't negatively effect you if someone else spends their own money buying something that you personally don't need.
Pricedm
Member
"For my daily work drives I drive...most commonly around 225 miles per day"
(225 x 5) = 1,125 average miles per week
x 48 weeks per year = 54,000 miles per year.
Oil change every 5k @$30 = $330
gas at 30 mpg = 1,800 gallons
fuel at $3.15/ gallon = $5,670 <-- gas cost underestimated
$6,000 fuel + oil change cost/year
--versus--
electricity
pick you mix Supercharging - at home ratio
I don't agree with #2 "Paying for the supercharger daily adds up over time and negates a fair amount of savings by not having to purchase gas."
Between free, home (10 cents per kWh PM rate), and Supercharging, easy to calculate costs.
Over 14,977 miles, my Tesla consumed 3,485 kWh. Total out-of-pocket costs to drive 15,000 miles: $50 Supercharging + $250 at home = $300.
$1,080 is a reasonable cost for electricity for 54,000 miles.
Here's another perspective: Tesla vs. Gas Cars: The True Charging Cost After 75,000 Miles
(225 x 5) = 1,125 average miles per week
x 48 weeks per year = 54,000 miles per year.
Oil change every 5k @$30 = $330
gas at 30 mpg = 1,800 gallons
fuel at $3.15/ gallon = $5,670 <-- gas cost underestimated
$6,000 fuel + oil change cost/year
--versus--
electricity
pick you mix Supercharging - at home ratio
I don't agree with #2 "Paying for the supercharger daily adds up over time and negates a fair amount of savings by not having to purchase gas."
Between free, home (10 cents per kWh PM rate), and Supercharging, easy to calculate costs.
Over 14,977 miles, my Tesla consumed 3,485 kWh. Total out-of-pocket costs to drive 15,000 miles: $50 Supercharging + $250 at home = $300.
$1,080 is a reasonable cost for electricity for 54,000 miles.
Here's another perspective: Tesla vs. Gas Cars: The True Charging Cost After 75,000 Miles
I fully agree with all of your points.
Personally, I travel less frequently than you, but for longer trips.
Three times per year I travel from north to south of Italy (1.100 km one way). I can afford it with my model S (2019 raven). But this requres almost 2 more hours than with an ICE car.
If I had a lucid air I could save 45 mins minimum. thus reducing the wasted time to almost 1 hour.
If I had a 600 miles EPA rated car I could save additional time. maybe the distancve to an ICE would be almost null.
This adds to other business trips delays, which can be estimated between 30 min to 1 hour each, depending on the case.
But overall, as you correctly say, the option offered to some people like us is not requested to be for free... I am ready to pay for it, and I do not deny the option for others to get "standard range" versions.
To conclude, i also agree that those who already have an EV are a restricted selection of the potential buyers, All the others are out of the market now.
The fact that all car producers (maybe not porsche) still tend to communicate to the market overestimated range of their cars might affect the development of the EV market, due to the inevitable disillusion when the "not expert purchasers" discover the real world range and talk to friends...
A new and easier standard should be legalizzed: the range at a specified constant speed.
One is the "average consumption", other is the range for a long trip.
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nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Do you not stop anywhere during the course of the day? What if those locations had chargers? I have a friend that often drives ~400 miles per day for work. They visit various clinics and hospitals in the area. Even L2 at these locations would EASILY make a 200 mile range car more than viable.
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