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Sorry, but I am not understanding. What is the connection to FSD here?Given the FSD promises from Tesla, I would not hold my breath for increased range
My partner used to have an i3 for a while ... and for 90% of days, it's ~80 mile range was plenty. 200 nominal miles is plenty for dedicated city cars, and trends toward decadent for that market.(With respect to the short range option, if a car is only being used as an urban vehicle, 300 nominal miles is more than enough)
It is unlikely that Tesla will deliver long range car anytime soon. Same as FSD.Sorry, but I am not understanding. What is the connection to FSD here?
When possible I alway take the Model 3. After about 4 hours I want a stretch, go to the rest room and get something to eat. Under the best situation that takes 45 min and the car is ready in 40 minutes. We cover 650 miles in a day no problem, no drama and really no more time than the gasser.Hello everyone, I hope you are doing well,
After the cancellation of the 500+ range Model S Plaid+, I have been seeing a big debate of Teslas or EVs in general regarding 500 miles worth of range on Twitter. The main argument I am seeing is that most people will want to stop as 500 miles of driving in one day is a lot. During that stop, they will be able to supercharge, eat, etc... However, the other argument that I have been reading is having the convenience of 500 miles of range as an option whether used or not.
My take, as we all know 500 miles of range is only achieved through the most ideal conditions. My 315ish MY does not give me that range when I drive in the midwest. Hills, high-speed interstates (60-80 mph), wind, etc lower my range. In my case, living in the midwest and traveling to southeastern states would benefit me when traveling. For example, in ideal conditions, if I was to travel from Indianapolis, IN to Atlanta, GA, I would need to stop about 3/4 times give or take. A 500 mile version of the MY, maybe twice at a 250 KW SC. When I do make these trips, I stick to my ICE becuase I can get there quicker then my Tesla. I would like to take the MY but the extra time isn't worth it for me as I do not stop unless for gas. To conclude, my take is just having that convenience factors of extra range, of course everyone has a different use case compared to me.
Any thoughts, TMC?
Driving on a flat ground, in the spring - yes. In the winter, on a mountain road my MS LR+ (EPA 402miles) turns into 200miles real range.When possible I alway take the Model 3. After about 4 hours I want a stretch, go to the rest room and get something to eat. Under the best situation that takes 45 min and the car is ready in 40 minutes. We cover 650 miles in a day no problem, no drama and really no more time than the gasser.
Not in my Model 3 fortunately.Driving on a flat ground, in the spring - yes. In the winter, on a mountain road my MS LR+ (EPA 402miles) turns into 200miles real range.
In the Midwest my “310” mile 2018 MP3 gets ~170 to 180 mi in fall/winter at normal hwy speeds.Driving on a flat ground, in the spring - yes. In the winter, on a mountain road my MS LR+ (EPA 402miles) turns into 200miles real range.
I absolutely agree that my suggested future minimum standard of 300 miles even for an urban car is not actually needed for a car that is strictly used that way. But purchasers often don’t think of it like that. They think: ‘maybe one day I will want to go on a road trip’. They may only go on such a road trip with the vehicle once every 5 years, if that, but they like to think they could. From a practical perspective investing in a bigger battery for a once every 5 year trip probably does not make a lot of sense, and they would be better of renting a longer range vehicle for that one time. But from a *marketing* perspective, giving people the idea that they could do it if they want wins over strict logic. Marketing sells a lot of vehicles. That’s why you have ‘rugged’ SUVs and trucks in driveways of people who will never use their actual capabilities. From marketing perspective, I think the future minimum range will be about 300 miles for family vehicles even if at least some buyers will not really need that.My partner used to have an i3 for a while ... and for 90% of days, it's ~80 mile range was plenty. 200 nominal miles is plenty for dedicated city cars, and trends toward decadent for that market.
I personally see the Schelling points falling out at 500/350/220 for road trippers/general utility/city cars respectively, but I'm looking forward to see what actually happens.
There is this thing about EV manufacturers mission - to help the environment. Not sure which one is worse - having larger batteries with single car or having small and large battery and two cars.I absolutely agree that my suggested future minimum standard of 300 miles even for an urban car is not actually needed for a car that is strictly used that way. But purchasers often don’t think of it like that. They think: ‘maybe one day I will want to go on a road trip’. They may only go on such a road trip with the vehicle once every 5 years, if that, but they like to think they could. From a practical perspective investing in a bigger battery for a once every 5 year trip probably does not make a lot of sense, and they would be better of renting a longer range vehicle for that one time. But from a *marketing* perspective, giving people the idea that they could do it if they want wins over strict logic. Marketing sells a lot of vehicles. That’s why you have ‘rugged’ SUVs and trucks in driveways of people who will never use their actual capabilities. From marketing perspective, I think the future minimum range will be about 300 miles for family vehicles even if at least some buyers will not really need that.
Good point. But there are a fair number of people who don’t go on long road trips whether they have one car or two. The last time I went on a road trip which involved 3 or more days in one direction was 40 years ago! The last time I went on a trip 2 or more days in one direction was 12 years ago. Even long overnight return car trips are a relative rarity for me, although I go frequently on short overnight or multiple day trips involving 100-200 miles in each direction, with the ability to reacharge at destination or (as not often is needed) along the way at a Supercharger. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate having a Model 3 with 300+ miles range. But strictly speaking, it is probably more than I need. And there are people with cars that road trip even less than I do, who use them only for urban travel. For most of them, strictly speaking, even 200 miles of range is probably overkill. That said, from a psychological perspective (for which we are marketed) people like me like the idea that we could take the car on a long trip, so we buy more range than we need. It would likely make more economic sense just to rent a long range car for 7-10 days for that extended car trip, if it ever happens.There is this thing about EV manufacturers mission - to help the environment. Not sure which one is worse - having larger batteries with single car or having small and large battery and two cars.
EPA 402mi turns into 200 real miles in the winter mountains drive (actually, it 1/2 flat and 1/2 mountain). That is ~3hrs and we do it at least twice per month and rarely stop. For us that is not a “road trip” and I think this is a common use case.Good point. But there are a fair number of people who don’t go on long road trips whether they have one car or two. The last time I went on a road trip which involved 3 or more days in one direction was 40 years ago! The last time I went on a trip 2 or more days in one direction was 12 years ago. Even long overnight return car trips are a relative rarity for me, although I go frequently on short overnight or multiple day trips involving 100-200 miles in each direction, with the ability to reacharge at destination or (as not often is needed) along the way at a Supercharger. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate having a Model 3 with 300+ miles range. But strictly speaking, it is probably more than I need. And there are people with cars that road trip even less than I do, who use them only for urban travel. For most of them, strictly speaking, even 200 miles of range is probably overkill. That said, from a psychological perspective (for which we are marketed) people like me like the idea that we could take the car on a long trip, so we buy more range than we need. It would likely make more economic sense just to rent a long range car for 7-10 days for that extended car trip, if it ever happens.
I agree that more EV range would be useful for some people and I am looking forward to a future where it would readily available without making vehicles unreasonably expensive or heavy. As I have written before in this thread, I think that 400 miles eventually should be standard range for EVs, with a 500+ mile range option also being available, but with a 250-300 mile range option also offered for vehicles intended largely only for 'urban' usage. Basically, I am happy for people to get as much range as they want to pay for.EPA 402mi turns into 200 real miles in the winter mountains drive (actually, it 1/2 flat and 1/2 mountain). That is ~3hrs and we do it at least twice per month and rarely stop. For us that is not a “road trip” and I think this is a common use case.
Even with the 400mi EPA range we barely make it - if I have a roof rack I must stop and top up at a SC. Don’t get me wrong - I love the SC experience. But a quick 10-15 min stop easily turns into 30-40 min delay. As times go and the battery degraded I will have to make those stops.
So, 400mi was the threshold that allowed me to buy EV. 500mi will remove the “battery anxiety”.
I fully agree with all of your points.I think the range is absolutely necessary. For me personally, the only reason i don't have an EV yet is range.
For my daily work drives I drive a minimum of 150 miles a day, most commonly around 225 miles per day and sometimes up to around 310 miles in a day. I do this 5-6 days a week. There is one supercharger on my route and it is only 15 miles from my home. Not much help.
Would more superchargers be good? Absolutely. Is that the best solution for someone having to travel this much on a daily basis? Absolutely not, for several reasons.
1. Spending 15-30 minutes or more per day wastes a lot of time I need to be working or, at the end of the day, could be spending with my family. I'd rather be able to have enough range to do all my daily charging at home.
2. Paying for the supercharger daily adds up over time and negates a fair amount of savings by not having to purchase gas.
3. Superchargers degrade the battery quicker making the range issue just get worse and worse over time.
Now I understand that most people don't drive this much, but what reason is there not to offer it as an option for those that want it?
While for many people the value may not be there...the cost in dollars isn't worth it to them, to others it is and that isn't wrong.
I've seen people say that the data shows that tesla drivers don't drive that much that it is necessary and I'm sure that is true overall, but that can also be attributed to the fact that there are a lot of people out there that simply can't buy an EV because of the range issues.
I really don't understand why it is an argument. More options are better, buy what you need and let others get what they need. It doesn't negatively effect you if someone else spends their own money buying something that you personally don't need.
I think the range is absolutely necessary. For me personally, the only reason i don't have an EV yet is range.
For my daily work drives I drive a minimum of 150 miles a day, most commonly around 225 miles per day and sometimes up to around 310 miles in a day. I do this 5-6 days a week. There is one supercharger on my route and it is only 15 miles from my home. Not much help.