85 y/o man died in his Tesla after he drove into a pool.

[cwerdna]

There is no feedback loop of hitting the gas, and hearing the engine roar. That noise lets someone quickly know they screwed up. The noise generally happens before the car is quickly moving. The Tesla on the other hand is not only silent, but it's also extremely quick especially if someone is driving the 85D, P85, P85D, etc. It's still quick even with a 60/70D.

This might be why Toyota put on the annoying reverse beep (for the interior) on Priuses that began (I believe) w/the Gen 2 Prius (04 model year). In some cases, the ICE isn't running backing up and will not roar nor increase in revs while backing up since the Prius' transaxle has no reverse gear. Reverse is electric.

In a slightly related note, I feel that turning off creep mode can cause a similar incident when parking because then at slow speed you have to gently push the accelerator (rather than letting off the brake) to move into the spot and its very easy to over-accelerate due to the instant torque of the Tesla.. once you push it down too hard its too late.

Re: creep, Federal Register, Volume 68 Issue 94 (Thursday, May 15, 2003) is a document that talks about directional cueing that creep provides. They point to Honda hybrids and the Prius. Discussion under "Safety Importance of Creep Force in Cueing the Driver--Creep Force in Reverse" and elsewhere.

To go somewhat OT, I semi-surprised when test driving the BMW i3 there was no creep in either direction, but I think, I'd heard about this already.

When I test drove before they were on sale in the US at CES in Vegas at BMW's tent, I overheard someone talking in the line who obviously wasn't a car person (by the way they talked) being thrown off by the lack of creep (they didn't use those words). They shifted in to drive or reverse (via a very unconventional shifter, a stalk on the right that you twist forward or back) and were confused by lack of motion (ala automatic transmission). Then they were surprised that the car jumped when they pressed on the accelerator.

 

[Firewired]

Weird statement in the article. They make it sound like the design of the car somehow kept him from getting out:

"He said, 'Get out of the car.' She got out of the car, trying to get him out of the car, but the way they're made with the console and the seat belts and everything, it just didn't happen,” Bolton said.

 

[jerry33]

Weird statement in the article. They make it sound like the design of the car somehow kept him from getting out:

"He said, 'Get out of the car.' She got out of the car, trying to get him out of the car, but the way they're made with the console and the seat belts and everything, it just didn't happen,” Bolton said.

That's no different than any other car. But that quote sounds as if this was deliberate rather than accidental.

 

[Kandiru]

Dementia is cruel. Several millennia ago we died shortly after we developed senile hyperopia in our 40ies and stopped being able to hunt.

Tesla and Google should pioneer fully autonomous vehicles for the
Elderly.

 

[AWDtsla]

As to the Tesla specifically there are some things that don't make it very compatible with majority of elderly drivers.

There is no feedback loop of hitting the gas, and hearing the engine roar. That noise lets someone quickly know they screwed up. The noise generally happens before the car is quickly moving. The Tesla on the other hand is not only silent, but it's also extremely quick especially if someone is driving the 85D, P85, P85D, etc. It's still quick even with a 60/70D.

Oh give me a break! Old people (and some others) are always doing this regardless of the make of car. There's plenty of feedback when the car pushes you back in your seat!

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

There are A LOT of these complaints/accidents with the MS. A lot of them on NHSTA too. There was much discussion about pedal placement and whether or not it's a design defect of their location or being too close to each other that's causing people to confuse the two and result in these accidents.

this is just absurd. I have seen/heard this and it makes no sense to me

If you have that much trouble telling which foot is left and which is right you shouldn't drive...or walk for that matter

- - - Updated - - -

Weird statement in the article. They make it sound like the design of the car somehow kept him from getting out:

"He said, 'Get out of the car.' She got out of the car, trying to get him out of the car, but the way they're made with the console and the seat belts and everything, it just didn't happen,” Bolton said.

since there is no center console>? and the other cars don't have these seatbelt shenanigans

 

[Knobby]

this is just absurd. I have seen/heard this and it makes no sense to me

If you have that much trouble telling which foot is left and which is right you shouldn't drive...or walk for that matter

It's not like you work the brake with the left foot and throttle with the right.. It's all right foot, and it's misplacement of the foot without realizing it and as someone said the acceleration is positive feedback to push the "brake" harder, thus even faster.

 

[MsElectric]

So sad and condolences to the family...

If this Model S did in fact have the ultrasonic sensors, could this have been avoided? I've always wished there was some sort of a "garage" mode that the car would get into when it senses the car is driven in low speed or in an enclosed garage. Software can then keep the car from bumping into or through any walls quite easily.

If you are right in front of a brick wall, and the car's ultrasonic sensors know that there is a wall ahead, and you mistakenly floor the accelerator thinking you are stepping on the brake to start the car, I feel they should program the car to not drive through the wall. It is possible with present technology so why not?

At the least, maybe show a message:

Obstacle Ahead! Press brake fully and then the accelerator if you intend to drive through wall.

At low speeds, I feel the ultrasonic sensors + software should be able to prevent accidental scrapes in garages completely. Not just when you are driving it but possibly when a careless valet is driving your car.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

It's not like you work the brake with the left foot and throttle with the right.. It's all right foot, and it's misplacement of the foot without realizing it and as someone said the acceleration is positive feedback to push the "brake" harder, thus even faster.

...actually I do in my Tesla :smile:

I always ragged on anyone that drove with both feet in automatics and I preferred manual cars but with the S I feel that driving with 2 feet is actually superior.
these cars can take off so fast that RT it much improved for emergency braking if your left foot is at the ready.

 

[Mark Z]

...I've always wished there was some sort of a "garage" mode that the car would get into when it senses the car is driven in low speed or in an enclosed garage. Software can then keep the car from bumping into or through any walls quite easily...

Fantastic suggestion. The answer is SO simple. GPS. The car knows that I am at home or work, and could limit the sudden acceleration speed at those two locations that we frequent.

Other garages may be more difficult to detect with sensors. Am I in a garage or is that a vehicle ahead of me? Instead, Tesla Motors could allow additional locations to indicate a garage, similar to selecting "favorites".

Having HomeLink GPS areas protected automatically would not be a good idea, as driving on the highway next to the gated entrance to my housing community is not where I want to slow down automatically. I also need to quickly accelerate from the gate when entering the highway.

 

[AWDtsla]

If this Model S did in fact have the ultrasonic sensors, could this have been avoided? I've always wished there was some sort of a "garage" mode that the car would get into when it senses the car is driven in low speed or in an enclosed garage. Software can then keep the car from bumping into or through any walls quite easily.

If you are right in front of a brick wall, and the car's ultrasonic sensors know that there is a wall ahead, and you mistakenly floor the accelerator thinking you are stepping on the brake to start the car, I feel they should program the car to not drive through the wall. It is possible with present technology so why not?

At the least, maybe show a message:

Obstacle Ahead! Press brake fully and then the accelerator if you intend to drive through wall.

At low speeds, I feel the ultrasonic sensors + software should be able to prevent accidental scrapes in garages completely. Not just when you are driving it but possibly when a careless valet is driving your car.

That will be great until the sensor detects something it shouldn't and you're stopped in a lane of moving traffic because your car would not accelerate.


The rule still holds: If you idiot proof something, they'll just build a better idiot. The car already (annoyingly) cuts throttle if you press both pedals. The only real solution is this driver should not be driving a car.

 

[MsElectric]

That will be great until the sensor detects something it shouldn't and you're stopped in a lane of moving traffic because your car would not accelerate.


The rule still holds: If you idiot proof something, they'll just build a better idiot. The car already (annoyingly) cuts throttle if you press both pedals. The only real solution is this driver should not be driving a car.

So the worst thing that can happen is that you will not accelerate and you can easily override the car's warning. The best thing that can happen is you will not crash through a wall and die. Seems like a good tradeoff to me

Also note that this feature of not crashing into or driving through a wall would not just depend on the ultrasonic sensor but there is also radar and a camera. If all 3 think there is a wall in front of you, maybe there is a wall in front of you.

At the least I would prefer to have this as an option so those who would like to have this as an additional layer of safety can activate it.

I realize you can't protect idiots from their idiocy but I am sure you agree that humans make mistakes. In my decades of driving I have gotten the pedals mixed up maybe a handful of times. Each time I caught my mistake in a fraction of a second but what if I didn't?

The feature where the car will not knowingly crash into a known object can be programmed only to be active at speed below 5 or 10 mph. I feel at those speeds if the car will put itself in Park as a safety measure if your bottom leaves the driver's seat it should maybe also not knowingly crash through or into a wall... With ultrasonic sensors and radar with software can pretty much eliminate low speed accidents in garages into pillars, other cars, walls, and pedestrians. It seems a no brainer to use the existing sensors to mitigate such accidents.

 

[AWDtsla]

So the worst thing that can happen is that you will not accelerate and you can easily override the car's warning. The best thing that can happen is you will not crash through a wall and die. Seems like a good tradeoff to me

How about getting t-boned by one or more cars going 45 mph?


You're trying to design a car to basically never move until it thinks it's appropriate. I've already had my front collision warning go off several times, I've seen TACC slam on the brakes because of a passing car, and I can't wait until I experience auto emergency braking unnecessarily.

The electronic driver nannies with an equivalent IQ of 40 should all go away. The car should either drive itself 100% or stay out of the way.

 

[jerry33]

How about getting t-boned by one or more cars going 45 mph?


You're trying to design a car to basically never move until it thinks it's appropriate. I've already had my front collision warning go off several times, I've seen TACC slam on the brakes because of a passing car, and I can't wait until I experience auto emergency braking unnecessarily.

The electronic driver nannies with an equivalent IQ of 40 should all go away. The car should either drive itself 100% or stay out of the way.

The only way to make it not give false positives is to have it tied into known charging locations (locations where the car has actually charged).

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Oh give me a break! Old people (and some others) are always doing this regardless of the make of car. There's plenty of feedback when the car pushes you back in your seat!

I feel like this is one of those top gear moments where we argue for a bit then we agree to a test. So whoever loses can be mocked and ridiculed.

My hypothesis is the instant throttle response combined with the silent operation makes it difficult for an elderly person to control the car in an unattended acceleration scenario. With an electric car there is no feedback until you're already covering a lot of ground because the feedback is being pushed into the back of your seat. With an ICE car there is a small amount of time between when the engine starts roaring versus you going fast.

So what would happen if we put an average 85+ year old individual into a P90DL, and tested the amount of distance the car covers between stomping the throttle (as if it was the brake) and then hitting the brake. Would the driver be able to stop the car before it covered the average distance of stop light intersection? Would they be able to do so in an ICE car equivalent? Maybe something like a Cadillac CTS-V? Something really fast, but also with good brakes?

That will give us the number just from speed alone. We'll have to average at least 5 runs of each car.

Then we'll have to do the blind test.

So we take the same individual and blindfold him. We tell him all he has to do is hit the brake when he hears the engine roar or the car moving. Someone else will be in the passenger seat with his cane on the throttle.

In this test how much distance would be covered before the elderly gentleman could stop the car?

 

[MorrisonHiker]

While Tesla keeps making things faster, more insane and more ludicrous, I wish there was a hypermiler/eco mode that was the opposite. While most might not like such an efficient slow-poke mode, it could be a lot safer (and more energy efficient), especially for those drivers with delayed responses.

I know there are some cars out there which limit the output initially but will give you 100% if you continue to hold the pedal (as might be needed in an emergency situation).

 

[AWDtsla]

So what would happen if we put an average 85+ year old individual into a P90DL

...

In this test how much distance would be covered before the elderly gentleman could stop the car?

Perhaps we should measure how many seconds from 0 to heart attack....

 

[Skotty]

One concern -- does the door still open when pulling the handle on the inside if all power systems fail? Hopefully it does. Window might stick a little, because it can't drop down to clear the seal, but that's no different than many other cars.

There is something odd about the pedal placement. In my recent test drive, I accidentally hit both pedals a couple of times (it does have a nice alert when you do this), and it's something I don't think I've ever had trouble with before in any other car. Strange. I can adapt to this so I stop doing it, but it's just weird that I had this happen. However, this is not really a factor in this incident, as you would have to hit the gas and only the gas to make it go when you want to stop.

 

[green1]

One concern -- does the door still open when pulling the handle on the inside if all power systems fail? Hopefully it does.

Front doors, yes. Rear doors, no, but there's an emergency release below the seats behind a carpet flap.

 

[joek]

I have some insight in the brake/accel pedal mixup thing. I've done it once before in my Tesla, and i'm not elderly (41). Fortunately, there was nothing but yard in front of me... but it was scary. What I think people don't realize is the exact process which happens, and why these accidents can be so bad like this one.

If you have your foot on the brake, and your car starts moving -- what is your natural instinct? Press harder on the brake. That's what's happening. Even before you can process what's happening.

In your head:

- I'm pressing the brake
- Oh crap, the car is still moving. I need to press harder.
- Suddenly you are flooring the accelerator before you even think about it
- X moments later. Oh crap, I'm pressing the accelerator. Then you let go and slam the brake.

The "X" moments reaction time may vary depending on how old you are etc.... and in a Tesla, you will be moving pretty fast.