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90D time for fixes or lawsuits

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98% supercharger use over 2.4 years and 63,000+ miles produced less than 4% degradation in my first S (S85).

A little over a year so far with the second S (S90D) at 99%+ supercharger use (and less than half that mileage yet) and the degradation is less than 1%.

Your 90D is pretty much the same vintage as mine. I'm curious if perhaps the V3 90kw battery has many of the accelerated degradation and limited supercharging issues solved?
 
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I have a 90D less than 20k miles and it has lost at least 10% of rated miles, and I am currently supercharging at 62kW. Tesla is capping the charging because of the poor performance of their 90 batteries and it’s unnaceptable. I am going to have to supercharge close to 2 hours each leg of a trip.
I had a X P90D Sig with 36K miles on it. I was still supercharging > 100 kW but it depended on what my SOC was.
 
That massive survey of battery degradation showed supercharging appeared to slow degradation if that's possible. People who supercharge experience less degradation. Further people who supercharge more than those who supercharge rarely experience less degradation. Weird. The data doesn't lie though.
 
Based on what I've seen so far with my 90D, I would have to agree with @sakimano as I'm slightly ahead of the curve with 3% degradation at 40,000km.

That being said, I've seen max charge rates in Norfolk, VA SC of 92kW while I was alone at the charger a few days ago. That was the morning following a pretty intense road-tripping session of 1,500km+ and 4 x 100% recharges (2 of them at SCs). Hopefully I'm not experiencing the dreaded SC rates capping due to frequent SC usage...
 
1. Build Date/Mileage: 3/2016 / 38.5K
2. Range at 100% (Standard Miles/Range Mode off): 274 vs. 294 new (6.8% degradation)
3. Daily Charge % Target: 70%
4. Supercharger use per year: 36% of my charging is at superchargers, still charges at up to 105kW < half SoC
5. Battery Version and or Part #: 1063792-00-A

Is that part number V1 or V2?
 
Battery degradation is a given BUT abnormal degradation is not.
What constitutes abnormal?
One can only 'check' using the graph compiled by Teslarati.

I would think it is reasonable to figure 2 standard deviations from the average could be construed as abnormal. That’s a figure used in calculating the normals for lab tests and it’s a number also used in research. The “p” value in research papers is the probability that the data points one in a wrong direction. That’s probably not the best way to phrase it but that is the gist. Anyway a “p” value of 0.05 is usually used, that’s 5%. A normal bell shaped curve with a cutoff two standard deviations above and below the average results in 2.5% of values being outside the cutoff on the high end and 2.5% of the values being outside on the low end.

So if you can find enough of the data, calculate the standard deviations (a spreadsheet will do it), then see if your battery degredation falls outside the curve in the lowest 2.5%, you’d have a case for excessive degredation.

The problem is getting the data. You’d need the real numbers for the miles of charge, not the numbers calculated from the drivers habits. Also it needs to be a random sampling. I’d think the random sampling should be across all Teslas, not just the ones with the battery pack in question.

This is all my opinion of course. It seems the reasonable approach. I hope it helps.
 
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I have a 90D less than 20k miles and it has lost at least 10% of rated miles, and I am currently supercharging at 62kW. Tesla is capping the charging because of the poor performance of their 90 batteries and it’s unnaceptable. I am going to have to supercharge close to 2 hours each leg of a trip.

I also have 23k miles and I also lost 10% of the charge capacity. I hope the degradation slows down.
 
I would think it is reasonable to figure 2 standard deviations from the average could be construed as abnormal. That’s a figure used in calculating the normals for lab tests and it’s a number also used in research. The “p” value in research papers is the probability that the data points one in a wrong direction. That’s probably not the best way to phrase it but that is the gist. Anyway a “p” value of 0.05 is usually used, that’s 5%. A normal bell shaped curve with a cutoff two standard deviations above and below the average results in 2.5% of values being outside the cutoff on the high end and 2.5% of the values being outside on the low end.

So if you can find enough of the data, calculate the standard deviations (a spreadsheet will do it), then see if your battery degredation falls outside the curve in the lowest 2.5%, you’d have a case for excessive degredation.

The problem is getting the data. You’d need the real numbers for the miles of charge, not the numbers calculated from the drivers habits. Also it needs to be a random sampling. I’d think the random sampling should be across all Teslas, not just the ones with the battery pack in question.

This is all my opinion of course. It seems the reasonable approach. I hope it helps.
As far as I can tell from our own experience, it does not really matter to Tesla when it comes to excessive/ severe degradation.
All we have got back from them is...It’s normal and your battery is just fine...

We are in the process of filing a lawsuit against them concerning this degradation.
Other than that, the car is a good one.
 
We are in the process of filing a lawsuit against them concerning this degradation.

What grounds are you basing your lawsuit on? (Since gradual battery capacity loss is specifically excluded from the warranty for S&X.) Or did you have a sudden large drop of capacity? (Which are the cases where we have seen Tesla replace/repair the battery.)
 
Ours is a CPO with 75K miles when we bought it.
Degradation at Day 1 was 21%.
Now, it’s about 24%.

And you have a Model S 60 right? (Which shouldn't suffer from the same problem the 90Ds do that this thread has been discussing.)

Ouch. So your reported range at a full charge is down to ~160 miles?

How many miles/months have you had the car for the 3% loss?

So you don't know if the 21% loss was gradual or not, which certainly doesn't help.

Do you have any problems with it suddenly cutting out as you approach the 0%?
 
Several people reported on slow charging with 90D after a while. The statement from Tesla was about reducing max charging after several fast chargings. I think this issue hasn't been fully identified, but some owners have high charging above 110kW when the car is new but that charging speed degrades to e.g. 90kw after some time. Here in this case charging at 62kW would be too low, if the charging takes place at a supercharger and there is no car next to it charging as well and sharing the same stall.

Anyone stuck at 62KW should check and make sure their cooling louver isn't defective. Mine was for six months and I fought with Tesla to diagnose the issue at one service center and was told there was no problem. I finally figured out that the cooling louver wasn't opening even when hot but the same service center still denied there was an issue and said if there was any error it would have shown up a a "service" required error on the dash.

I went to another service center finally and was told that there was a louver alert that had shown up in the logs constantly for the previous six months. They replaced the louver and my charging went from dropping to 62KW after a minute of being plugged in staying at118KW and tapering down as you would expect. 77K miles currently on P85DL.

CORRECTION: I believe I was seeing 64KW, not 62KW with the stuck louver...but they are suspiciously close.
 
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As far as I can tell from our own experience, it does not really matter to Tesla when it comes to excessive/ severe degradation.
All we have got back from them is...It’s normal and your battery is just fine...

We are in the process of filing a lawsuit against them concerning this degradation.
Other than that, the car is a good one.

All that follows is idle speculation. I am not an attorney. If I’ve got something wrong here, by all means point it out. Especially if you are an attorney.

How are you calculating the degredation?
Are you using pure numbers or miles calculated based on the driver’s past power consumption?
And if you are relying on the car computer readout, how accurate is it in reflecting the true value of the remaining battery capacity?

I’m not questioning what you say, just wondering whether the data is valid. I’m sure if you do go to court these things will come up.

Every time I’ve been to court it’s cost about $30,000 in attorney’s fees.

I think it might go like this:
Suppose your 90D is a $100,000 car. And suppose you have a bona fide 10% degredation and the upper limit of “normal” degredation is 5%. It seems your excess degredation, assuming you can prove it, would be worth about 5%. Now suppose the entire value of the car is in the battery pack. It isn’t but let’s assume it is. So we start with 5% of the car value. They’ll argue that you’ve had use of the car so the depreciated value should be used. A 90D goes for an average of $56,405 according to AV-CPO just now.

So 5% of $56,405 is $2820.

I don’t think the potential recovery is going to cover your attorney’s fees.

If Tesla has limited your ability to charge the car at superchargers, you might make a case for this inconvenience. If it takes 2 hours to charge instead of one and if you visit superchargers 50 times a year, then they might figure you’ve lost 50 hours. There are 2000 work hours in a work year (40h X 50 weeks). Suppose a person makes $100,000 per year. That’s about $66,000 after taxes. That person’s time would be worth about $33 per hour so the lost hours might have an after tax value of $1650. They’ll argue these weren’t work hours lost so they should be valued lower. Nonetheless we’ll use $1650.

So $2820 + $1650 is $4470.

And that’s if you win. You won’t, though. Tesla’s lawyers are better than the one you’ll hire. They’ve got more than one. They know the science, have intimate knowledge of the batteries, and point out flaws in your calculations and assumptions. They’ll find reasons for the degredation, maybe you kept the car charged to 100%. They’ll have access to all your charging data. You’ll have access to none of their data.

I do understand the frustration. I’m not sure the range you see on the computer reflects a genuine decrease in the battery pack capacity. Anyway, I just don’t see court as a reasonable approach. No lawyer is going to take the case based on a fraction of the award, so he’ll happily charge you his going rate. His retainer will be higher than the potential recovery.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t sue. People have lots of reasons for suing. I doubt you are going to compel Tesla to replace your battery, your car, and I don’t think you are going to recover your costs. It takes a long time. And it will consume you, you’ll spend your time and energy on this, preparing things, meeting with lawyers, worrying, concerned with dates and deadlines, instead of spending your time on other pursuits


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