A different idea for limiting SC

[beantownrich]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I was thinking about the limits being placed on Supercharging. Totally makes sense to reduce congestion, but I feel like the wrong metric is being used. Providing 400kwh / year (1,000 miles) may be generous, but that may really only be one or two trips. For example, I live in Boston. I recently went to a friend's wedding in Rochester NY. Door-to-door was 375 miles. Let's say I left my house in a S 70D. I probably could get to Utica before a charge stop. So at that point I'd be charging on the Supercharge Network. I'd probably need 1-2 more charges to get home (or at a destination charger). So let's say I've tapped into 180kwh on this trip (medium/long range), I'd probably only be able to take one and a half more "free" trips.

But what if rather than capping total network consumption, it was just initial network consumption? So let's say the first visit of a trip hits your limit, but if you fill up at another supercharger x number of miles away within the next 24 hours it's not counted toward your total. That way you could continue to cross the country on your trip and you're not causing congestion at any single charger (the fear attempting to be alleviated).

Surely, if they can make a neural network smart enough to drive the car, they could figure out an algorithm for this.

I'm not complaining, it's still cheaper than the 6 tanks of gas I actually used on my round trip to Rochester. Just thinking of another alternative.

 

[brkaus]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I was thinking about the limits being placed on Supercharging. Totally makes sense to reduce congestion, but I feel like the wrong metric is being used. Providing 400kwh / year (1,000 miles) may be generous, but that may really only be one or two trips. For example, I live in Boston. I recently went to a friend's wedding in Rochester NY. Door-to-door was 375 miles. Let's say I left my house in a S 70D. I probably could get to Utica before a charge stop. So at that point I'd be charging on the Supercharge Network. I'd probably need 1-2 more charges to get home (or at a destination charger). So let's say I've tapped into 180kwh on this trip (medium/long range), I'd probably only be able to take one and a half more "free" trips.

But what if rather than capping total network consumption, it was just initial network consumption? So let's say the first visit of a trip hits your limit, but if you fill up at another supercharger x number of miles away within the next 24 hours it's not counted toward your total. That way you could continue to cross the country on your trip and you're not causing congestion at any single charger (the fear attempting to be alleviated).

Surely, if they can make a neural network smart enough to drive the car, they could figure out an algorithm for this.

I'm not complaining, it's still cheaper than the 6 tanks of gas I actually used on my round trip to Rochester. Just thinking of another alternative.

I would argue that any "free" above some preset is not sustainable. Sure, it's great marketing for the few people that do a huge number of long road trips, but that comes at the expense of a higher priced car for everyone. The more complicated the rule around "free", the less marketing benefit.

 

[CHG-ON]

I expect that it is not just a congestion issue, but also a cost issue for Tesla, who needs to pay the bill. I like your idea. But it does not address the cost issue.

 

[sdorn]

Personally I would be happy to have no free supercharging, and for supercharging to be priced similar to gas, if they could build an infrastructure that provided similar access to supercharging as gas stations provide for ICE cars. Having to think about where superchargers are located, and how much range I need to get to the next one, and what amenities are located near the supercharger, etc. are all things I would definitely pay not to have to worry about.

 

[Topher]

That way you could continue to cross the country on your trip and you're not causing congestion at any single charger (the fear attempting to be alleviated).

I don't think you are grasping the problem. It isn't that one person is repeatedly using the same Supercharger. It is that too many people are using Superchargers, and given normal variation, some of them are thus getting congested. Every time you charge, there is a probability that you will straw that broke that particular Supercharger. That probability gets multiplied by the number of times you charge (regardless of where). Your algorithm wouldn't help.

Thank you kindly.

 

[roblab]

I don't think you are grasping the problem. It isn't that one person is repeatedly using the same Supercharger. It is that too many people are using Superchargers, and given normal variation, some of them are thus getting congested. Every time you charge, there is a probability that you will straw that broke that particular Supercharger. That probability gets multiplied by the number of times you charge (regardless of where). Your algorithm wouldn't help.

Thank you kindly.

A couple comments, If I may.

In California, it is local owners driving over to the superchargers and sitting for two hours to "fill up" while travelers who may only have 20 miles of range, and may need only 20 minutes of charge, sit in line waiting for someone to move. This only happens at three or four chargers, but before this, Tesla's response was to build more chargers at the site. Which are then filled by locals. If your drive brings you through town after 9PM, there is no congestion. Or before 6 AM, where you meet those charging before going to work. Somehow, the word "free" clogs the arteries of the brain so some folk feel that it is better to drive through traffic and sit for two hours to save $5. It is their right. It is the American Way. It "makes them smart". Or something.

Of course, M3 may cause more problems. Current Tesla owners "paid for" supercharging in the price of the car, but Tesla sees, I think, that making it "not free" will remove the brain infarct.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Free or not free.... Anything in between is a customer service nightmare.

 

[jsmay311]

Free or not free.... Anything in between is a customer service nightmare.

Or... maybe they could do something in between free and not-free.

Like... I don't know... maybe they could provide 400 kWh for free each year, and then charge for anything beyond that?

Seems like that would be plenty simple to execute and would not resemble any kind of nightmare in the eyes of any reasonable person.

 

[bob_p]

Supercharging was never free - in each car sold with supercharging capability, Tesla included a portion of the purchase cost to cover the supercharger network - both for installing/upgrading superchargers and for electricity use over the life of the car.

Tesla has been advertising "free long distance charging", and owners using the superchargers for local charging break the funding model - and is something that Tesla needed to address.

It's possible Tesla underestimated the supercharger costs for long distance driving, and even if they put limits on local charging, they still needed to generate more revenue to cover the cost of the network - so the new policy is essentially a price increase, and instead of increasing the up front cost of each car, they will defer part of the revenue as a usage fee for those owners that are using more than 1000 miles of charges annually on the SC network.

We're waiting to purchase a 100D - and if our 100D doesn't get the unlimited free long distance charging, then we'll factor in the estimated SC costs we'll pay over the life of the car into our purchase, and if the costs are significant, in combination with the recent price increases and the likely increase in cost of the 100D, it's possible the SC network charging might be the final straw and make the 100D too expensive to justify making the purchase to replace our P85.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Or... maybe they could do something in between free and not-free.
Like... I don't know... maybe they could provide 400 kWh for free each year, and then charge for anything beyond that?.

But that's still "not free". It just adds a small upfront component ("first one's free" like any good drug dealer would do). Once that runs out (rather quickly), it's not free.

What I'm saying, any kind of "formula" that says "x is free, but y is not" is just begging for confusion over exactly what qualifies for "x", and when some owner doesn't get "x" when they think they should, it's a nightmare trying to explain some formula based on mileage and/or time that they just missed by say 10 miles or 10 minutes.

I mean, most owners I run into at Superchargers have no idea about the pairing issue. Now the suggestion on top of that is to make it free in certain situations for certain people who qualify at that moment, and not free for others? People are going to get pissed off when they are denied free supercharging when they think they should be getting it for free, and it's up to some poor CSR at Tesla to try to calm them down and explain that they just missed the cutoff, sorry Charlie!


edit to add: I do like the outside the box thinking though. There's always room for new ideas. I'm not trying to discourage that.

 

[Max*]

Personally I would be happy to have no free supercharging, and for supercharging to be priced similar to gas, if they could build an infrastructure that provided similar access to supercharging as gas stations provide for ICE cars. Having to think about where superchargers are located, and how much range I need to get to the next one, and what amenities are located near the supercharger, etc. are all things I would definitely pay not to have to worry about.

+10000 I'd gladly pay for supercharging. I'd even gladly pay as much for supercharging as gas, if superchargers were ubiquitous.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

+10000 I'd gladly pay for supercharging. I'd even gladly pay as much for supercharging as gas, if superchargers were ubiquitous.

And supercharger works. No point in having 1000s of superchargers but no of them work properly like in CA.

 

[beantownrich]

I mean, most owners I run into at Superchargers have no idea about the pairing issue. Now the suggestion on top of that is to make it free in certain situations for certain people who qualify at that moment, and not free for others? People are going to get pissed off when they are denied free supercharging when they think they should be getting it for free, and it's up to some poor CSR at Tesla to try to calm them down and explain that they just missed the cutoff, sorry Charlie!


edit to add: I do like the outside the box thinking though. There's always room for new ideas. I'm not trying to discourage that.

Touché, I do suppose you always have to think about the lowest common denominator (same goes for autopilot). Quite frankly I agree with other posts here that if the infrastructure was built out more, I'd gladly pay!

 

[Justicepool]

I'm perfectly fine paying for supercharger access. Having free access now with my 2014 P85 is nice, but that is not the reason I purchased the car (to get free supercharger access). And, when the time comes I'll move on to a Model X 100D beyond the free supercharger access time period and then......I'll pay for supercharger access just like I would pay for gas if I was in an ICE vehicle. I'm glad Tesla made this move.

 

[EVie'sDad]

I believe we need to clarify, that 400 kwh/year is for local SC access, while long distance SC will remain free.

Elon Musk says Tesla Model 3 will include ‘free long-distance charging’

 

[HankLloydRight]

I believe we need to clarify, that 400 kwh/year is for local SC access, while long distance SC will remain free.

Elon Musk says Tesla Model 3 will include ‘free long-distance charging’

I think the EM quote and the article are still quite vague about exactly what that means.

 

[Topher]

I believe we need to clarify, that 400 kwh/year is for local SC access, while long distance SC will remain free.’

Given that that is the third interpretation I have heard for his statement, perhaps WE should wait before 'clarifying'.

Thank you kindly.

 

[brkaus]

I believe we need to clarify, that 400 kwh/year is for local SC access, while long distance SC will remain free.

Elon Musk says Tesla Model 3 will include ‘free long-distance charging’

I wouldn't assume anything or set any expectations.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Would be too confusing for many people.
Gotta be clear and simple above all else.
I actually think 400kwh is too low. Here in Australia we only have one "supercharger highway", which connects Sydney and Melbourne.
The return trip is about 2000km, which would use the whole 400kwh if you were running at 200kw/km (300kw/mile).

I reckon about 1000kwh is a better allowance. Would still stop local charging, because 5000km (3000 miles) is still only a fraction of normal annual use, but would make road trips easier.

 

[Topher]

I reckon about 1000kwh is a better allowance.

You forgot to add "...and I am willing to pay more for the car to make up for that."

Thank you kindly.