A little direction with a crash!

[glamranda]

There’s a subtle moment when the cars front enters the parking space that it looks to decelerate slightly (as I’d expect if I was parking there). That either doesn’t continue or there’s a subtle acceleration also.

I have had my foot touch the brake and accelerator pedal simultaneously on a number of occasions without immediately realising.
In that scenario the car seemed to maintain its speed rather than slow or speed up.

A little warning appears on the binnacle display of my Model X. It’s right in front of me so I noticed it.

Not saying this was what happened with your scenario but I imagine on a model without the instrument cluster binnacle screen that it would be a lot less easy to notice the warning on the centre screen not in direct vision.

I expect Tesla would have likely told you if this was in the driving log though.

I would think they would gladly tell me what they think I did wrong. They rattled off how it wasn't the car's fault (only by stating how the braking works and that the diagnostic showed no unusual behaviour at all). They gave me no reasons why they thought I was at fault though.

As for the brake/accelerator scenario - what you see in the video is me taking my foot off the accelerator completely as I come in. The hold failed. No slow down, no sensing the curb like it had many many times coming into this exact parking spot. My daughter and I both knew something was wrong. There was no acceleration at all, or we would have felt that little jolt you get from Tesla's when you hit the accelerator (both my partner and I have Tesla's). She saw me hit the brake and try again and again - it wasn't both pedals and I expressed very clearly to her that I couldn't control it. It was the car, not me and I said this twice. There was no confusion for me about what was happening.

 

[glamranda]

Nothing new, another driver error who will not accept his error making up hold failure and brake failure and firmly believing it. Sorry for your accident, but that's all it was - your accident

That's not a fair statement. How do you know for sure? Were you there? It's ok to question everything like others have, but you can't say this with certainty. Everything in life has room for error, even Tesla. It's a computer, as we know computers fail once in a while. I love Tesla, I own two. I am completely disheartened by this. This was not a driver error and I had a witness in the car. My daughter watched it all unfold and watched the hold and brake fail as well. This is not something I want to happen. I don't want to have to take legal action. I have had the news in my city want to pursue this and I haven't said a word. I don't need the money. What I want is for a huge company not to bully me or keep the diagnostics of the car a secret. That's all.

 

[glamranda]

I hope this is not your fault!!

It’s most likely definitely your fault lol

Not a helpful or kind response. Everything in life has room for error. Even a Tesla.

 

[andyzdeman]

I would think they would gladly tell me what they think I did wrong. They rattled off how it wasn't the car's fault (only by stating how the braking works and that the diagnostic showed no unusual behaviour at all). They gave me no reasons why they thought I was at fault though.

As for the brake/accelerator scenario - what you see in the video is me taking my foot off the accelerator completely as I come in. The hold failed. No slow down, no sensing the curb like it had many many times coming into this exact parking spot. My daughter and I both knew something was wrong. There was no acceleration at all, or we would have felt that little jolt you get from Tesla's when you hit the accelerator (both my partner and I have Tesla's). She saw me hit the brake and try again and again - it wasn't both pedals and I expressed very clearly to her that I couldn't control it. It was the car, not me and I said this twice. There was no confusion for me about what was happening.

Sounds highly unpleasant event and now this scenario for you to sort afterwards.

What do you mean the hold failed?

With regards the sensing the curb - do you mean there was no park assist beeps and visuals to advise you of when to start breaking?

 

[ABC2D]

Listen, as I said, sorry it happened, but it is 100% certainty your error. Look up wk057 who investigated NUMBER of similar to your "unintended accelerations" and every singe one year over year turned out to be a user error. He also tested brakes on Teslas to see if motors can overpower them EVEN with safety functions off - and every single time brakes can hold.

Here, start with this one:

I've made offers to people several times over cases where people were trying to blame Tesla for user error issues or felt that an autopilot airbag triggered recording would exonerate them from something.

My offer is always the same: You provide me access to the vehicle, I'll pull the logs and parse the relevant data. I'll then share the results, regardless of what they end up revealing, with you, Tesla, your insurance company, and I reserve the right to post the data wherever else it may be relevant.

Thus far only one person decided to take me up on this, then got cold feet at the 11th hour thinking it'd be best not to do so. I'm reasonably certain that these people just didn't want to have confirmation that they'd screwed up.

Every case of "sudden unintended acceleration" with a Tesla is driver error. Period. There is no way for the vehicle to accelerate on its own like people claim. It's also always pedal misapplication, too, where the driver presses the accelerator when they should be braking. Almost always cases where the car is slowing to a stop, then "suddenly" accelerates (because the driver hit the accelerator instead of the brake at the time they would be hitting the brake to stop the car).

I've pulled logs from at least two cars that, when looking back at news and posts, claimed unintended acceleration. The logs in both cases clearly showed the driver applying the accelerator pedal at the time of the accident. Electrek did an article about this: Several Tesla owners claim Model X accelerated/crashed on its own but everything points to user error

The vehicle logs the outputs of both hall effect sensors in the accelerator pedal independently. They both must match their respective output curves during a go-pedal press in order for the car to respond to a request for acceleration. If anything is off, the car doesn't move. If one sensor goes out, the car will operate in limp mode with drastically reduced torque.

Suffice it to say, there quite literally is no way for a Tesla Model S/X/3 to do what people claim without the driver pressing the accelerator pedal.

 

[Tiger]

There was no acceleration at all, or we would have felt that little jolt you get from Tesla's when you hit the accelerator (both my partner and I have Tesla's). She saw me hit the brake and try again and again - it wasn't both pedals and I expressed very clearly to her that I couldn't control it. It was the car, not me and I said this twice. There was no confusion for me about what was happening.

If both pedals are pressed the car does not jolt, maybe that's the tell? Just try it with another car (you mentioned you have more Teslas in the family ), pressing both pedals (with your foot mostly on the brake pedal and partly on accelerator, the more it is on accelerator the more it will want to go forward and vice versa).

 

[OxBrew]

I used to hit both pedals all the time, the first week. It always gave me a prominent series of beeps and a pop up said both pedals pressed, accelerator disabled or some such. It ignored the accelerator input.

This is a good reminder to train myself to use the park button in a roll away situation, it also acts like an e brake if held down (assuming it worked and something was not messed up).

 

[wk057]

Video's been delisted, but it sounds like you nailed the accelerator pedal instead of the brake, the obstacle aware acceleration then greatly limited the power output instead of lurching forward Tesla launch style.

Driver error... and the software doing what it was supposed to do and help mitigate that error.... and somehow the driver still not having sufficient situational awareness to correct their mistake.

 

[Unclepaul]

Once you mention lawyers, Tesla will stop having casual conversations with you and refer you to their lawyers as well.

If you go the legal route, your lawyers will be able to request logs of your event. It will show the precise amount of both throttle and brake positions at the time of the event.

This information will also be presented to the Judge who will use that data to determine guilt.

If caused by Tesla, them will compensate you for your loss and use that information to improve their system to keep it from happening again.

If caused by you, then you will be responsible for all damages plus Tesla's court and defense costs.

In a stressful moment, it is well studied that the human brain will try to make sense of an incidence like this. It will do what it can to prevent you from remembering clearly.

 

[andyzdeman]

Listen, as I said, sorry it happened, but it is 100% certainty your error. Look up wk057 who investigated NUMBER of similar to your "unintended accelerations" and every singe one year over year turned out to be a user error. He also tested brakes on Teslas to see if motors can overpower them EVEN with safety functions off - and every single time brakes can hold.

Here, start with this one:

It’s not as clear cut as saying all investigations have shown it to be driver error. Below describes how a vehicle electronics error could appear as if it was driver error.

I know there are a lot of clueless drivers out there hoping to hide their shame BUT I also am cautious in saying that it’s as clear cut as the vehicle is never wrong. These are relatively new products with potential fridge cases becoming more numerous as they sell more. There is always the chance there are minute issues as yet undiagnosed.

Researcher Discovers Tesla Design Flaw That May Cause Unintended Acceleration; NHTSA Reopens Investigation

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reexamines allegations about a potential design flaw causing unintended acceleration in the Tesla Mod

www.notateslaapp.com

 

[MP3Mike]

The hold failed. No slow down, no sensing the curb like it had many many times coming into this exact parking spot.

Hold doesn't sense or react to curbs.

There was no confusion for me about what was happening.

Well it seems like you are confused about how the regen and hold features work. Neither hold, nor regen, sense and react to curbs. (Hold doesn't do anything until after the vehicle comes to a stop, it just keeps it stopped.)

Everything in life has room for error, even Tesla. It's a computer, as we know computers fail once in a while.

The brakes are physical controls, the computer can't stop you from applying them. If the brakes are still operational on your car after the crash, then that would almost guarantee you weren't pressing them.

Everything I have read so far makes it sound like you might have come in a little faster than usual, or maybe with a cold/full battery so regen didn't slow as much, and you pressed the wrong pedal. (Or both pedals.) In either case it sounds like the car mitigated your mistake by limiting acceleration.

@wk057 used to offer a running bet, $10k, he would pull the logs and if it showed you applied only the brakes he would pay you $10k, if it showed you pressed the accelerator you pay him $10k. A number of people took him up on that, and in every case the logs showed the accelerator was pressed. I'm not sure if he still offers that bet or not...

 

[MP3Mike]

It’s not as clear cut as saying all investigations have shown it to be driver error. Below describes how a vehicle electronics error could appear as if it was driver error.

I know there are a lot of clueless drivers out there hoping to hide their shame BUT I also am cautious in saying that it’s as clear cut as the vehicle is never wrong. These are relatively new products with potential fridge cases becoming more numerous as they sell more. There is always the chance there are minute issues as yet undiagnosed.

Researcher Discovers Tesla Design Flaw That May Cause Unintended Acceleration; NHTSA Reopens Investigation

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reexamines allegations about a potential design flaw causing unintended acceleration in the Tesla Mod

www.notateslaapp.com

That is a theory that is unproven. The person who wrote that wrote two other theories that were essentially the same, some voltage/heat thing causes the sensors to read wrong and the Tesla would accelerate on its own. Both of the prior ones were investigated and disregarded as false. The same thing will likely happen with this one. (And really he has been writing crap papers like this for a decade, and not a single time has his one of his theories been proven to be true.)

In almost all cases, his theory is dead simple to test, but he never actually tests them himself. He makes NHTSA do that for him. But it sure gives short sellers an opportunity, as the announcement of his theory, and the way NHTSA reports them, almost always make stocks react negatively.

 

[wk057]

@wk057 used to offer a running bet, $10k, he would pull the logs and if it showed you applied only the brakes he would pay you $10k, if it showed you pressed the accelerator you pay him $10k. A number of people took him up on that, and in every case the logs showed the accelerator was pressed. I'm not sure if he still offers that bet or not...

This is technically an ongoing bet, but in fairness everyone who's taken me up on it I've never held to paying me. It's effectively impossible for me to lose the bet because it's impossible for SUA to actually happen.

That is a theory that is unproven. The person who wrote that wrote two other theories that were essentially the same, some voltage/heat thing causes the sensors to read wrong and the Tesla would accelerate on its own. Both of the prior ones were investigated and disregarded as false. The same thing will likely happen with this one. (And really he has been writing crap papers like this for a decade, and not a single time has his one of his theories been proven to be true.)

In almost all cases, his theory is dead simple to test, but he never actually tests them himself. He makes NHTSA do that for him. But it sure gives short sellers an opportunity, as the announcement of his theory, and the way NHTSA reports them, almost always make stocks react negatively.

I recently debunked this on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676634778622197763

 

[CCopperpot]

So def not the same situation by a mile, but yesterday I was driving home in my model 3 and decided to stop by a convenience store/gas station to grab a drink. I had been using autopilot up until that point and I only just recently discovered that autopilot will not only accelerate, but it will brake for you too, provided a car is in front of you! Its made my commute to/from work 1000% more enjoyable and use it all the time since discovering that.

Anyway, I was stopped at a stoplight behind a few cars waiting to turn into said gas station, which was on the right BEFORE the intersection. When the car in front of me started to move, I slowly accelerated and turned into the parking lot of the gas station when all of a sudden, my car started accelerating quite aggressively (for a small parking lot). I stomped on the breaks and heard the telltale chime of autopilot disengaging. I'm not sure why my brain didn't think to disengage autopilot at that intersection, before turning.... but I immediately thought of this thread (and other such stories).

Anyway, figured someone might find it amusing, if anything. Drive safe people.

 

[oldsport]

when ur on fsd and autopilot, your right foot is just hanging outside the pedal zone and then when reengaging pedals ur asleep drowsy foot just kinda wonders off imprecisely and wham... shyte happens...

 

[brainhouston]

Like MP3Mike pointed out, brake pedal is physically (hydraulically to be precise) connected to wheels
So, the only 3 possible scenarios for the true braking action fail are:

1. iBooster fail. If there's no boost for brakes they will feel like u trying to stop a train. This is not an actual brake system fail but just a human perception.
We're used to light foot pressure but if assist fails, u need to apply enormous pressure with both feet to stop a 5k lbs car... Sometimes the brain can't interpret that fast enough...
I had hydro-boost fail once on a dodge ram n i almost ran a stop sign while only driving 25mph...

2. ABS active. I don't know much about how ABS works but when it activates it de-applies brakes a bit to prevent wheel slip
Theoretically if it was fully on, maybe it can allow for wheels to continue rolling but you'd feel it in the pedal pulsing n audibly n i've never heard of this happen...

3. Loss of brake fluid. You truly get no brakes n ur pedal goes to the floor. This will hold true after accident as well so easy to confirm.

Stay safe everyone.

 

[glamranda]

Video's been delisted, but it sounds like you nailed the accelerator pedal instead of the brake, the obstacle aware acceleration then greatly limited the power output instead of lurching forward Tesla launch style.

Driver error... and the software doing what it was supposed to do and help mitigate that error.... and somehow the driver still not having sufficient situational awareness to correct their mistake.

Nope. My daughter was in the car with me. Watched it all. Had a witness. It wasn't the accelerator. I didn't nail anything. I pulled my foot OFF the accelerator as I always do coming into this spot for the 50th time, and the hold didn't work. Then, when I put the brake on and even pumped the brake a bit, the car failed to respond. As my daughter explained the feeling to the police...it felt like a ride at Disney on a track.

 

[glamranda]

when ur on fsd and autopilot, your right foot is just hanging outside the pedal zone and then when reengaging pedals ur asleep drowsy foot just kinda wonders off imprecisely and wham... shyte happens...

Wasn't using fsd or auto pilot. Fully aware and engaged in my parking.

 

[wk057]

Nope. My daughter was in the car with me. Watched it all. Had a witness. It wasn't the accelerator. I didn't nail anything. I pulled my foot OFF the accelerator as I always do coming into this spot for the 50th time, and the hold didn't work. Then, when I put the brake on and even pumped the brake a bit, the car failed to respond. As my daughter explained the feeling to the police...it felt like a ride at Disney on a track.

Unfortunately the scenario, as described, is a work of fiction. There's no reality where things could have occurred as outlined here.

Again, if you hit the brake, the car would have slowed/stopped. You did not. You may think you did. May even firmly believe you did. Dare even say you know you did. But you did not.

When you "put the brake on", and "even pumped the brake a bit," you were pushing the accelerator, and you're just lucky the car prevented the bulk of acceleration into an obstacle.

I highly doubt that in this moment of panic that your daughter was looking over at what your feet were pressing.

1. iBooster fail. If there's no boost for brakes they will feel like u trying to stop a train. This is not an actual brake system fail but just a human perception.
We're used to light foot pressure but if assist fails, u need to apply enormous pressure with both feet to stop a 5k lbs car... Sometimes the brain can't interpret that fast enough...
I had hydro-boost fail once on a dodge ram n i almost ran a stop sign while only driving 25mph...

It's actually not as bad as you'd think on a Tesla, especially at low speeds. I've pulled the iBooster fuse and have had people try this before, actually. It's super obvious as the brake is harder, but not difficult. The poster here claims to have pumped the brakes... so no.

2. ABS active. I don't know much about how ABS works but when it activates it de-applies brakes a bit to prevent wheel slip
Theoretically if it was fully on, maybe it can allow for wheels to continue rolling but you'd feel it in the pedal pulsing n audibly n i've never heard of this happen...

ABS can't bypass the brakes entirely in any failure mode, by design. Won't get into the details of that here, but even in a contrived situation where I welded components in a state in the ABS system, worst case you'd be losing some braking action on half of the wheels.

So, also not what happened here.

3. Loss of brake fluid. You truly get no brakes n ur pedal goes to the floor. This will hold true after accident as well so easy to confirm.

I tend to discount this as well. First, this would have been pretty obvious early on. You're not going to drive all day with no issues, and just all of a sudden going to lose 100% of braking action the moment you're slowing to park, the same scenario in which other people have had clearly proven pedal misapplication occur.

Second, because of the design of the ABS, even if you have a complete loss of a line on a couple of calipers, you can still get some braking action. You can drain the reservoir and still have some brakes. In fact, I recently rolled around a Model S that only had one brake caliper connected and was still able to use the non-powered brake enough to hold the car in place haha.


---

There's no real world scenario that fits with what's described. Eye witness accounts are the least reliable evidence, especially when they completely contradict physics.

Somehow still 100% confident you're right? Put your money where your mouth is and lets look at those logs.

 

[brainhouston]

I highly doubt that in this moment of panic that your daughter was looking over at what your feet were pressing.

Didn't wanna say it but yeah, this ^

It's actually not as bad as you'd think on a Tesla, especially at low speeds. I've pulled the iBooster fuse and have had people try this before, actually. It's super obvious as the brake is harder, but not difficult. The poster here claims to have pumped the brakes... so no.

Good to know!

ABS can't bypass the brakes entirely in any failure mode, by design. Won't get into the details of that here, but even in a contrived situation where I welded components in a state in the ABS system, worst case you'd be losing some braking action on half of the wheels.

So, also not what happened here.

Good to know as well, thanks for confirming.

I tend to discount this as well. First, this would have been pretty obvious early on. You're not going to drive all day with no issues, and just all of a sudden going to lose 100% of braking action the moment you're slowing to park, the same scenario in which other people have had clearly proven pedal misapplication occur.

Second, because of the design of the ABS, even if you have a complete loss of a line on a couple of calipers, you can still get some braking action. You can drain the reservoir and still have some brakes. In fact, I recently rolled around a Model S that only had one brake caliper connected and was still able to use the non-powered brake enough to hold the car in place haha.

I was considering like a line burst but yeah, ur correct, at least front/back is separate for sure
However if the master cylinder cracks or fails, i guess its possible to instantly lose breaks?.. but again it'll stay broken after...