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A possible solution to the autopilot nags

Discussion in 'Model S' started by diplomat33, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Member

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    Maybe this is totally dumb but why doesn't Tesla require the driver to push one of the buttons on the steering wheel to show they are paying attention instead of nudging the steering wheel?

    Pushing a button on the steering wheel would seem to have a lot of advantages:
    1) It would still show that the driver is paying attention
    2) It can't be hacked with a fruit. LOL
    3) It avoids the problem of drivers trying to grip the wheel or tug at the wheel uncomfortably.
    4) It would allow more comfortable hands-free driving while still providing a safety feature.
     
  2. RedMS

    RedMS Member

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    It would get incredibly annoying to push a button every 30 seconds. Might as well drive yourself
     
  3. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

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    Well *sugar*, who`d have thought that you still have to drive yourself when you have an allmighty level 2 system............
     
  4. LMichel

    LMichel Member

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    Except that Tesla wants your hands *on the wheel* - for now.
     
  5. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    Because pushing a button is not the same as having your hands on the wheel to take over at an instant.
     
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  6. jlewisthe3rd

    jlewisthe3rd Member

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    Here is the solution, works like a charm.

     
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  7. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

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    If people are stupid enough to need a yt video to figure out this "solution" then I really don`t know what to say anymore :eek:
     
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  8. jlewisthe3rd

    jlewisthe3rd Member

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    People need guidance, since Tesla doesn't provide formal training on how to use their system. Thats the cause of all this drama, they imply the car can drive itself in its marketing, they call it Autopilot and let people drive off the lot without a full understanding. Add to that, the message says "Hold Wheel" with no means of detecting if someone is "holding/gripping" the wheel versus applying torque which is what is needed. So yes there is a need for guidance for people, Elon knows this as well which is why he is now changing the message:


    Will be adjusting screen alert to clarify that we mean “slight up or downward force on the wheel”, not really “hold the wheel”

    — Elon Musk (@elonmusk) June 13, 2018
     
    • Like x 2
  9. Asterix187

    Asterix187 Member

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    ‘LOST’ springs to mind
     
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  10. CinRedMan

    CinRedMan Member

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    We are all suffering from the fact that stupid *sugar* happens.
    After the update, I am prompted every 30 seconds.
    Likewise, I am finding the sensitivity of the wheel "feels" adjusted, requiring a heavy hand too.

    So, while personally, I am not liking it, if this saves lives...I'm good with it.
     
  11. victorplus

    victorplus Member

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    Interesting presentation from Karpathy about Tesla autopilot development.



    But for me not a very good news for the one expecting a quick FSD release.
    Its the confirmation that they are focusing on software 2.0 for part of their driving policy, a lot of data, labeling, and automatic programming.
    It seems very promising for a lot of field, but in the same presentation Karpathy is strangly giving all the good reason so that its not such a good idea : software 2.0 approach is not very good with edge cases and require a huge work of labeling. And the best exemple is auto wipe that could have been very simply engineered but Elon insisted should be done with AI, ending up with a much longer and painful process.

    Waymo and Mobileye are going the classical way : use massively ai image recognition and HD map to get a very precise 3D representation of the world and its actors, then develop a classical 1.0 algorithm with a lot of special cases for the driving policy. And its working quite well, as Waymo is level 4 ready and Mobileye has vision only with effective driving policy operational in Jerusalem (to complete with a full redundant Lidar system).

    So Tesla is focusing on different way to develop driving policy when a simpler and more reliable system is known to work and at the same time trying to avoid the HD map problem and has still a lot of work to have a reliable vision+radar view of world.

    So all in Tesla is able to deliver a very good overall practical system that will work most of the time. They will be able to deliver impressive FSD feature, stoping at red light for instance, but they are far far away from level 3 and true level 4/5 FSD that imply full liability from the constructor.

    For me the way Tesla choose for its autopilot development means its guaranteed to be level 2 for a very long time even with a lot of quasi self driving features.

    Offering the most used automatic level 2 system, Tesla should have a moral obligation to offer the best driver monitoring system to ensure it stay in the loop for its own safety.

    The autopilot screen presentation is a very good point to communicate with driver about what the system is doing, but the wheel nag system is a real pity, an annoyance and not a guarantee of eyes on the road.

    Its all the more difficult to understand why Musk is dismissing pilot monitoring as a solution. Its perfectly fitting Tesla philosophy : a simple camera (already there in model 3 could be retrofitted on S and X) linked to a NN to understand what the driver is up to : attentive, sleepy, drunk.... It would allow a hand off eye on much more confortable, and could add terrific safety features (young driver monitoring...). This would add both safety and convenience : the system would ensure that you are concentrated and in the loop when needed (high speed driving) and could let you do other things in jam traffic.

    MIT has already a very interesting study on exactly the same theme, how people are using Tesla autopilot :



    and independent companies offer stand alone driver monitoring :

    http:www.seeingmachines.com/industry-applications/automotive/

    Tesla has a huge asset with its integrated computer system and OTA ability which allows to deliver incredible feature getting better and better when the other brand are stuck with rigid system, but it should not waste it with a bad overall FSD/autopilot approach.

    No you can't avoid better driver monitoring that is guaranteed to improve safety and potentially save life at a very low cost, because you hope one day to deliver FSD when you are improvising very uncertain way to get there.
    And no its not a good idea to use average accident statistic to prove autopilot safety and blame drivers when you are 100% sure that automated driving will always on average lead to less focus on the road.

    Once again, I'm not a Tesla basher, a long investor very happy with the rally, but Tesla can and should do much better with its autopilot/FSD story.
     
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  12. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    This. I have my hands on the wheel in AP and go for very long stretches without seeing nags. If I have to push a button on an interval that is worse.
     
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  13. RedMS

    RedMS Member

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    I meant not use auto steer at all
     
  14. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Weee!

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    What is absolutely ridiculous is that: at the same time they increased the nags, they decreased the visibility of it!!!

    The white strobing halo around the instrument cluster has been replaced with just a white line at the top. Many people have their steering wheels adjusted in such a way that the steering wheel blocks the view of the top edge of the instrument cluster. If they're going to reduce the visual cues, at least place what's remaining of it in an area that we all see, regardless of seat / wheel adjustments, like at the bottom.

    I want to voice this to Tesla... Where is everyone sending their complaints about the nags, so I can send this there as well?
     
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  15. Snowstorm

    Snowstorm Member

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    It is very possible that the reduced visibility of the initial nag is not accidental. If the initial nag is less visible, then it would only be seen by those who are paying close attention, preventing those who are paying less attention from reacting in time and allowing AP to go to lock out mode. Unfortunately, staring at the IC and focused on giggling the wheel is not the safe compared to looking out the front, so this is a big bad move for Tesla.
     
    • Like x 1
  16. jeffro01

    jeffro01 Active Member

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    Or... You could just hold the wheel as instructed...

    I've driven thousands of miles on AP1 and can count on one hand how many nags I've received over the almost 3 years of doing so...

    I really don't see why so many of you can't seem to use the feature properly...???

    Jeff
     
  17. MIT_S60

    MIT_S60 Member

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    About as annoying as the car telling me every 30 seconds that I'm holding the steering wheel wrong.
     
  18. whitex

    whitex Active Member

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    #18 whitex, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    In the old days of AP1, I used to white-knuckle it because I knew it was doing stupid things like getting very close to trucks or barriers. As it got better I noticed I started to trust it and pay less attention than I should, so I stopped using it. This got me thinking though, maybe what Tesla needs is a actual test for attention solution rather than hands on the wheel; every once in a while do an attention test - drive the car very close to known concrete barriers, just enough to scratch or crack the mirror. As people will start paying $600 a pop to replace their mirrors because they were using AP without paying attention (they should correct the car back into the lane if used properly), they might start paying more attention.

    Basically this, as the car gets better people start trusting it more creating dangerous situations, so do something stupid on purpose to make sure the driver will in fact take over, but since it's on purpose, the stupid thing is planned and won't kill anyone, just do some superficial damage to the car. Everyone gets happy, all those people who say they pay enough attention to take over any time don't get nags, and all those who don't pay attention stop using it because it costs them too much. :p
     
  19. W2JO

    W2JO Member

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    Your suggestion is very good! Perhaps there is a simpler way for some of us to live with the NAGs!
    1) Now the light blinks at the top of the screen and if you do not "tug" the wheel, you get a "count of one".
    2) I am a driver who is fully attentive to the traffic out the front window. I do not stare/or even "glance" at the speedometer,etc., unless the need exists.
    3) I HEAR the "beep-beep" warning very clearly, BUT the car counts these "beeps" and when it gets to THREE, I have to pull off and reset the autosteer. This is NOT the way to do it!
    4) A much better solution would to "blink the light as now" and after a second or two give a single short "beep" (which DOES NOT COUNT) as one of the three beeps to shut off autosteer. I would hear the little beep and know to tug the wheel.

    But I really DO hate the current system which ASSUMES I have a need to look at the speedometer area every 15 or 30 seconds. It is MUCH more important to maintain a vigil out the windshield!!!
     
    • Like x 2
  20. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    This was my idea for airplanes! Sigh, should've patented it. Once every 15-20 minutes, disconnect all the controls and simulate a catastrophic malfunction or stall. If the pilots don't correctly react to it, send them to retraining camp and penalize their performance ratings.

    (More studies needed to how that affects the lifespan of a pilot)
     
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