Active safety features?

[ecarfan]

The arguments against automation and for humans when it comes to safety have been debunked for decades. Aviation has proven, with its safety record and statistics, that automation is significantly safer than human monitored safety.

I take your point and agree with it as regards commercial aviation, however that form of transportation is not directly comparable to automotive transport on public roads where currently all cars are human controlled and there is no overall supervisory control like air traffics control for aviation.

 

[Teo]

Suggesting that safety features available in even much cheaper cars are not needed in Teslas is just like saying you don't want Tesla to succeed. Not all safety features are for lazy drivers. Some of these features save lives. Here are a few such features:

• Lane departure detection
• Blind spot detection
• Collision Avoidance with Auto Brake
• Pedestrian detection

All of them are available in the BMW i3. Here is a video in German:

I think all 4 features are great and each of them would save lives but I especially like pedestrian detection and I hope it will become mandatory in all cars in the future. The following article is about a little boy that died when a car was backing out. A few days ago somebody else posted another article about a similar incident.
1-year-old hit, killed as SUV backs out of garage | FOX13Now.com
If this was a BMW i3 that wouldn't happen. Any safety feature that helps saving lives which might be the lives of your loves ones has to be a good thing. A lot of pedestrians and cyclist are killed every year at low speed around parked cars or in a blid spot when a vehicle turns a corner.

As a cyclist I'm always worried about careless drivers. Here is an example. The stupid woman says "I didn't see you".

 

[Chipper]

Suggesting that safety features available in even much cheaper cars are not needed in Teslas is just like saying you don't want Tesla to succeed. Not all safety features are for lazy drivers. Some of these features save lives. Here are a few such features:

• Lane departure detection
• Blind spot detection
• Collision Avoidance with Auto Brake
• Pedestrian detection

All of them are available in the BMW i3. Here is a video in German:

I think all 4 features are great and each of them would save lives but I especially like pedestrian detection and I hope it will become mandatory in all cars in the future. The following article is about a little boy that died when a car was backing out. A few days ago somebody else posted another article about a similar incident.
1-year-old hit, killed as SUV backs out of garage | FOX13Now.com
If this was a BMW i3 that wouldn't happen. Any safety feature that helps saving lives which might be the lives of your loves ones has to be a good thing. A lot of pedestrians and cyclist are killed every year at low speed around parked cars or in a blid spot when a vehicle turns a corner.

As a cyclist I'm always worried about careless drivers. Here is an example. The stupid woman says "I didn't see you".

Last I checked the i3 was not less than $20,000???? But hey, to each his/her own. If you are looking for active safety features and there is a car out there that has what you are looking for, I say, Go For It!!!

 

[David_Cary]

Ok, skipping the argument about the usefulness of things, wouldn't you think that Tesla should have some active safety by now?

I mean, not to bitch, but what have the upgrades been lately. Given the "benefit" of making improvements all year long, rather than model year focused, is seems like Tesla engineers are taking a big break (or working on the X?).

I know plenty of people who bought car X instead of the S because of the lack of active safety. That fact is all that matters when it comes to whether they "should" offer them as an option. Whether some person thinks every driver on the road is as infallible as a computer is irrelevant.

Elon has been talking about active safety and yet hasn't delivered anything....

I mean how hard is it to add some sensors and programming particularly to a car already run by computer?

 

[Rebel44]

And if Tesla doesnt want to develop such systems internally, they can also licence this tech from someone like Volvo that have lots of experience with these systems.

 

[Teo]

Chipper,

I didn't say $20K. You are now mixing up forum members. Why are you criticizing my example with something somebody else said? Does this make any sense to you? Somebody else said even $20K cars have some safety features the Model S doesn't have. Does this mean I'm now obliged to follow their argument and their example? I gave another example which I think is appropriate.

In your mind how did you connect the steps from "this person said this about $20K cars therefore this other person's example doesn't fit because it is not $20K?". I'm curious how you jumped from one outcome to the other. Does the thread title say "Active safety features in $20K cars that are not available in Model S"? I don't see that in the title.

It looks like you see every other forum member who has any suggestion for improvement as the same person you have to fight against. If this was the way to help Tesla have a bigger market share, to stay ahead of competition, to have a brand image that reflects their approach to cutting edge technology and safety, then we would all just attack anybody who is not completely impressed with everything Tesla offers or doesn't offer yet.

Unfortunately in real life things don't work like that. Attacking other Tesla fans because they have suggestions doesn't help Tesla in any of those areas. The enthusiasm levels of fanboys doesn't change anything in real life. It doesn't reduce the number of people killed in accident that could be prevented.

I presented my argument with a video from a competition another video from a real life situation, a news article and an itemized list of possible features to add and all you had to say was "it is not $20K" as if I said it was.

 

[Zzzz...]

And if Tesla doesnt want to develop such systems internally, they can also licence this tech from someone like Volvo that have lots of experience with these systems.

Sure Tesla is developing such tech. Elon made a loud announcement about Tesla hiring talents to pursue goal of self driving car. And active safety features are obvious first step in that direction. Elon even said something like "self driving is active safety in a limit".

But Tesla is in no rush. Orders are growing faster than production capacity. When Tesla solve production capacity issues they will start to implement bells and whistles like ACC, collision avoidance, pedestrian and blind spot detection etc.

- - - Updated - - -

“Self-driving cars are the natural extension of active safety and obviously something we should do,” Musk said.

 

[Teo]

I did some further research. A useful search term is LSVRO (low speed vehicle run over).

According to a research published in March 2014 by US National Institute of Health (link 1), "the most comprehensive, population-based epidemiological study on fatal and non-fatal LSVRO events to date" is a Queensland Australia analysis between 1999-2009.

Link 1: Incidence of paediatric fatal and non-fata... [BMC Public Health. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI

They made some calculations comparing number of incidents to population and came up with these rates:

Total Incidence Rate: IR=16.87/100,000/annum
Fatal Incidence Rate: IR=0.27/100,000/annum

The Population of US is 314 million. If the rate in the US is same as Queensland Australia, number of children run over at low speed would be as follows:

Total LSVRO Incidents in the US: 52.972 per year or 4414 per month or 145 per day
Fatal LSVRO Incidents in the US: 848 per year or 71 per month or 2.3 per day

Anybody against active safety should find some of those parents who run over their own children and try to explain them the reasons why they spend their time in forums arguing with people against active safety features such as pedestrian detection that might have saved their child. Let's see what the parents think about that approach.

PDF document about Queensland research:
Link 2: PDF File: http://www.carrsq.qut.edu.au/publications/corporate/driveway_runovers_fs.pdf
Link 3: PDF File: http://www.racq.com.au/__data/asset...to_Low_Speed_Runovers_In_Queensland-_2007.pdf

A screenshot from Link 2:

The MS is an amazing car, but I'm getting sick of hearing people say it shouldn't have any feature that it didn't originally come with. That sort of thinking would still have people standing in front of their cars with a hand crank every morning!

I agree completely. I'm sick of over enthusiastic fans.

 

[NigelM]

The Population of US is 314 million. If the rate in the US is same as Queensland Australia, number of children run over at low speed would be as follows:

Total LSVRO Incidents in the US: 52.972 per year or 4414 per month or 145 per day
Fatal LSVRO Incidents in the US: 848 per year or 71 per month or 2.3 per day

Just noting that your extrapolations differ from publicized US rates, it looks more like 2 fatalities per week. Also worth noting that the majority of injuries come from trucks, vans and SUVs. Everything that helps avoid fatalities is good, and Model S does have a reversing camera, but nothing substitutes for the driver paying attention.

 

[Teo]

Nigel, the site you mentioned is very sad with all those images of little kids. However the stats are a little worse than you mentioned because 2 fatalities per week is only for backovers which are 34%. However the following chart shows a similar rate (30% instead 34%) for frontovers. The LSVRO (low speed vehicle run over) includes both. So in the US the LSVRO is more like 4 children per week.

PDF File: http://www.kidsandcars.org/userfiles/dangers/shared/fatalities-pie-chart.pdf

The following page suggests some safety tips. Here is one of them:

Consider installing cross view mirrors, audible collision detectors, rear view video camera and/or some type of back up detection device.

PDF File: http://www.kidsandcars.org/userfiles/dangers/backovers-safety-tips.pdf

A while ago I watched a test drive video of the BMW i3. The car was stopped in traffic lights and suddenly the alarm went off. There was something near the car and the alarm sound was loud and clear. It also showed a flashing image on the screen displaying the problem was in front right. I thought it was very cool.

- - - Updated - - -

Rear cameras are not very useful. They only help in 17.6% of cases according the research from the website Nigel mentioned. (88% of 20% is 17.6%). An audible warning is needed.

This study demonstrated that in rear-view camera-equipped vehicles, 20% of drivers looked at the camera before backing, and of those 88% did not crash.
...
This study indicates that drivers not only attend to an audible warning, but also will look at a camera if it is available after the audible warning is sounded.

PDF File: http://www.kidsandcars.org/userfiles/dangers/backovers/studies/2010-04-21-backing-collisions.pdf

 

[jerry33]

That $20,000 car probably has a CD player too (something the Model S lacks). Should Tesla add one?

No. Tesla should not add a CD player. I have lost many disks in car CD players because they eventually jam up. The thumb drive is far better.

 

[Lerxt]

I take your point and agree with it as regards commercial aviation, however that form of transportation is not directly comparable to automotive transport on public roads where currently all cars are human controlled and there is no overall supervisory control like air traffics control for aviation.

Air traffic control haas nothing to do with it. The aircraft themselves are full of systems that act or advise on safety risks as well as operating procedures that often require or a least strongly advise the use of automation in most situations.

 

[Mayhemm]

I still don't see any reason why it shouldn't be offered as an OPTION.

Never did I insinuate that it should not even be offered as an option in the future. However, I am of the opinion that there is no rush for such features. The car is not broken in their absence.

 

[Teo]

there is no rush for such features. The car is not broken in their absence.

I agree. Yes, Tesla has time until BMW, VW, Nissan or somebody else comes up with a 200+ battery EV. The same is valid for Gen 3. That was the reason why I mentioned the BMW i3. The list I put up earlier did not include comfort features like fully automated parking or active cruise control. In my opinion these are not safety features but Tesla needs to add them too.

I remember Elon saying in the long run the US market will correspond to a quarter of Tesla's sales. So Tesla really needs to add everything the competition has if they want to compete against them in Europe.

I checked again available options in i3. It is a lot of features to add to Tesla until BMW comes up with a long range i3 or i5. Elon was comparing the Gen 3 to BMW 5 series. Let's hope the optional extras will be comparable too.

If I had to guess I would say Tesla has 3 years to add the following features because I would expect other car companies to make a long range EV in 3 years. These features need to be available for the Gen 3 and Model S.


Options in BMW i3: BMW i3 : Safety

• Lane departure detection
• Blind spot detection
• Pedestrian detection with proactive braking
• Front collision detection with proactive braking
• Rear end collision warning: warns about imminent rear-end collisions in due time.
• Fully automated parking without driver input: the BMW i3 accelerates, brakes and steers itself
• Active Cruise Control with Stop&Go: Maintains a constant speed and distance from 0 to 140 km/h without driver input. Autonomous drives up to a speed of 40 km/h during traffic jams.

In the meantime other companies don't stop improving these features. For example Volvo has added cyclist detection with proactive braking. BMW doesn't have cyclist detection yet but they will have soon.

I think the BMW i8 is too expensive and the i3 has useless range but there is still a lot of interest in these cars if number of views on youtube is an indicator. If BMW fixes these two issues and comes up with a long range i5, Tesla better be ready with all the optional features.

3.233.000 views for BMW i8 most watched video: The all-new BMW i8. Official Launch Video. - YouTube
3.135.000 views for BMW i3 most watched video: Laissez-vous électriser par la Nouvelle BMW i3 - YouTube
2.784.000 views for Tesla Model S most watched video: Behind the Scenes of How the Tesla Model S is Made-The Window-WIRED - YouTube

Elon once talked about upgrading the Model S. He said there might be a small upgrade after 4 years (2016) and a big one after 8 years (2020). I would expect lane departure detection and blind spot detection to be added with the small upgrade. I wish they would also change the cheap looking plastic nose cone.

 

[Chipper]

Chipper,

I didn't say $20K. You are now mixing up forum members. Why are you criticizing my example with something somebody else said? Does this make any sense to you? Somebody else said even $20K cars have some safety features the Model S doesn't have. Does this mean I'm now obliged to follow their argument and their example? I gave another example which I think is appropriate.

In your mind how did you connect the steps from "this person said this about $20K cars therefore this other person's example doesn't fit because it is not $20K?". I'm curious how you jumped from one outcome to the other. Does the thread title say "Active safety features in $20K cars that are not available in Model S"? I don't see that in the title.

It looks like you see every other forum member who has any suggestion for improvement as the same person you have to fight against. If this was the way to help Tesla have a bigger market share, to stay ahead of competition, to have a brand image that reflects their approach to cutting edge technology and safety, then we would all just attack anybody who is not completely impressed with everything Tesla offers or doesn't offer yet.

Unfortunately in real life things don't work like that. Attacking other Tesla fans because they have suggestions doesn't help Tesla in any of those areas. The enthusiasm levels of fanboys doesn't change anything in real life. It doesn't reduce the number of people killed in accident that could be prevented.

I presented my argument with a video from a competition another video from a real life situation, a news article and an itemized list of possible features to add and all you had to say was "it is not $20K" as if I said it was.

Hey Teo! "Fight"??? "Attack"??? "ALL I had to say"??? Not even! Let me rephrase...If another car has the features you are looking for, I say, "Go for it." (Sorry if you think I confused your post with a previous poster's comments.)

 

[William13]

Patience grasshoppers. Active safety is very difficult to get right. Tesla is working on these things. I expect ACC, lane departure, blind spot, and no active braking one year after Model X introduction. I think the integration is very hard with the platform being different from other vehicles. It may be inherently easier to automate the Tesla but they are having bugs in many of their upgrades as things stand.

 

[jerry33]

I agree. Yes, Tesla has time until BMW, VW, Nissan or somebody else comes up with a 200+ battery EV.

I suggest they do it before then, because most of us won't be alive when that comes about.

 

[smsprague]

I am thinking about adding the MobileEye 560 after market solution

 

[TI Sailor]

Patience grasshoppers. Active safety is very difficult to get right. Tesla is working on these things. I expect ACC, lane departure, blind spot, and no active braking one year after Model X introduction. I think the integration is very hard with the platform being different from other vehicles. It may be inherently easier to automate the Tesla but they are having bugs in many of their upgrades as things stand.

See Twinklejet's 5/18/*13* thread (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-and-a-sensor-suite-of-driver-safety-features) for link to story where J.B. Straubel said they were working on these features, which I fully expect to be optional. While I can find a multitude of vehicles as @Chipper suggested, I want an MS -and- the frontal crash protection features, not only for the added safety but for the possible (probable?) better insurance rates. Whether all the features are needed or not, IIHS criteria and ratings are reality and likely affect TOU.

 

[Elctrek]

My current daily driver is a SL63 AMG Mercedes... It has most if not all of the safety features mentioned in this post. My other cars do not. If it were offered in the Tesla when I ordered mine... even if it were an option, I would have gladly purchase it. They have saved me many times over the past year and a half when I took my eyes off the road or traffic for a few seconds. They are a great assist while driving.