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Actual range of the 160 mile model S

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Rifleman, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. Rifleman

    Rifleman Now owns 2 Model S's!!!

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    I have been planning on buying the 160 mile range S, as my daily driving very rarely goes over 80 miles (at the very most 100 miles on rare occasions)

    At first I had always assumed that the 160 mile pack would be perfect for this, but now I am starting to have doubts. Apparently it is bad for the battery to charge to the full 160 mile range all the time, so I am going to loose some range because of that. Also, since my drive is about 70 miles at 65-70 MPH and 10 miles at 35-40 MPH, I figure that I will loose some range to that as well. In addition, while my car will be parked in a garage at night charging, during the day at work it will be parked outside, and during the winter is can get quite cold. I can only assume that this cold soak will cost me some range as well. The final concern is battery degradation. Even if the 160 Mile Model S works for me today, will it still work for me in 75,000 miles?

    These concerns are not an attempt to bash Tesla or the Model S, more of an attempt to determine if I need to push back buying one a little bit until I can afford the 230 mile pack.

    Is there anyone who is familiar enough with this technology to give me at least a semi-accurate assessment on the viability of the 160 mile Model S for my needs? Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    160 mi in range mode @ 55mph.

    You don't want to use range mode every day for your daily driving, or your pack will degrade quickly...so you'll use standard mode, which gives approximately 80% that range.

    So that puts you down to 128 mi @ 55mph.

    Assuming 87% of your drive is at 65-70mph, it's safe to drop another 15% of range for 65-70mph (vs. 55 mph)...I'll call it a loss of 24 miles.

    That puts you at 104 mi.

    If you use A/C or heat, you might lose another 10%....so that's down to about 88 mi.

    That's cutting it pretty close, with a new pack, in standard mode.

    With a daily drive of about 80 miles--unless you can charge at work (you'll probably want a NEMA 14-30, at least) I think you'll need the 230.
     
  3. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    #3 richkae, Jan 2, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
    My Roadster battery is about 2 1/4 years old with 17000 miles on it.
    When I charge in range mode it gives about 241 ideal miles. ( Was 244 when new )
    In standard mode about 213 miles ( The readout says 188 miles, but it "hides" 25 miles that it keeps in reserve )
    So a standard charge in the Roadster is about 88% of what you get from range mode.

    88% of 160 is 140, so I would expect a standard charge in the 40kW Model S to give you 140 ideal miles.

    140 ideal miles ( range at 55mph ) would probably give you a range of 128 miles at 60mph, 117 miles at 65mph and 107 miles at 70mph.
    ( Numbers from eyeballing the data here: Roadster Efficiency and Range | Blog | Tesla Motors
    Although the Model S may do better than the Roadster in this regard, because it has better aerodynamics. )
    It is a complete guess that extreme cold or heat might cost you 10% off those numbers ( reducing range at 70mph down to 96 miles )

    If you can plug your car in to a normal 110 volt outlet while at work, it will recover most of the charge you use for the 40 mile half of the trip.
    ( A 110 volt outlet can charge about 4-6 ideal miles of range per hour )

    Also note that for the occasional longer trip you should just charge in range mode, which would give you: 147 miles at 60mph, 133 miles at 65mph, 122 miles at 70mph
     
  4. Mycroft

    Mycroft Life happens

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    I disagree with Todd. I think a daily drive of 80 miles with the occasional (planned) 100+ miles is an excellent scenario for the 160 mile pack.

    That said, there are lots of reasons to upgrade to the 230 if you can swing it. Many of those reasons are listed in the thread "Reasons to upgrade to 60kWh".
     
  5. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    Driving style is an important factor. Ask any Roadster owner :wink:.

    Lots of "flooring it, show-offs" are fantastic fun but eat power. Stop/go around town provides huge amounts of regen; put simply, I've spent days where I have driven 40 miles around town and at the end of the day seemingly used "only" 30 miles of range.

    Normally, I would say that Rifleman would be OK but note that it's sensible to charge whenever you can. If there's a chargepoint at work, then use it. Maybe you can get something installed there, just to make you feel better and to allow you the freedom to take off somewhere else after work.
     
  6. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    Sounds like you'd be fine until the battery hit some serious degradation many years down the road, at which point the $10k you saved by picking the 40kWh battery can be applied to a new battery. It might be tight on days you want to do things in addition to your commute.
     
  7. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #7 dsm363, Jan 2, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
    I agree with Todd and what a few other people said as well. I'd say that without a place to charge at work, that it might be better for you to get the 60 kWh pack. You'd be cutting it very close, especially traveling at 70mph and charging in standard mode on the 40 kWh pack but as others pointed out, it's possible. With the 60 kWh pack, you'd never even have to think about your range, even many years down the road. I think you could do it with the 40 kWh pack but it would be tight and you'd have to be careful with how you drove and what you did when you got to your destination if you wanted to make it home without charging.

    I thought you also don't want to dip into your reserve every day if you can help it but not sure about that. Tesla says that on their website that "While technically possible to upgrade from a 40 kWh battery to a larger battery at a later time, Tesla recommends configuring your Model S with the battery that meets both present and future needs." It's tough to predict what they'll do with battery upgrades in the future. The 60 kWh pack gives you the potential option for super charging in the future as well if that's important to you.
     
  8. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I agree.

    Rifleman: I guess if not getting the 40 kWh pack means you won't get the Model S, I think you'd still be ok getting the 40 kWh pack. You could even pay for and install a charging station at work for much less than $10,000 that the battery upgrade would cost. Even cheaper of course was a 110V outlet as was mentioned.
     
  9. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight _____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White

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    At 75 mph you get 70% of the range at 55 mph. After 5-8 years you get about 70% of the capacity. So 160 is now 80.

    Are you running the heater? Sounds like you have to.
    Are you more than 180 pounds or will you have someone with you?

    All these factors (plus others like driving style) have an impact.

    With all that said though, rather than spend $10K to upgrade, maybe installing a charger at work (down the road when the battery starts to degrade) might be more cost effective.
     
  10. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    This is pure speculation. Tesla said they would announce data about expectations of battery capacity over time.
    We have 6-12 months before purchasing decisions need to be made to wait for actual data.
     
  11. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Rather than guessing the effect of 65-70mph (the 55mph number might not be accurate either), I think it is better to wait for EPA sticker numbers to come out if possible. The EPA combined number seems to fairly accurately predict the Leaf's range.
     
  12. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight _____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White

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    This entire website is speculation for the most part (which is what makes it such fun). With that said this number comes from direct conversations with multiple Tesla employees. So call it well- informed speculation.
     
  13. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    While it is speculation, hopefully Tesla will reproduce that speed/range chart for the Model S that they posted for the Roadster. That should give people most of the information they need.
    Either way, the 40 kWh pack for a 80-100 mile daily commute would be on the lower end of what I'd want for driving at least. I think finding a place to charge every day at work would be ideal if he decides to get the 40 kWh pack.
     
  14. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    It is just too vague to be useful. Is it a worst case? What are the assumptions? What do the models say for an average case?
    My Roadster battery is 2 1/4 years old and is within about 1% of original capacity.
    By the end of 2012 there will be a lot of almost 4 year old Roadsters and hopefully we will have some significant data from those Roadsters.
     
  15. Mycroft

    Mycroft Life happens

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    Even then, we don't know how different the tech is between the "old" Roadsters and the Model S.
     
  16. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    "Upgrading" the ESS raises other questions: What does one do with a second hand battery pack? Is it worth anything? Will Tesla give me a trade-in value on it?

    I liked the idea from one of the Roadster threads of using an old ESS as power storage for my solar system, but the Roadster ESS is a pretty convenient square-ish block that could stand in my garage or an outbuilding. Don't know what I would do with a used Model S pack....hang it on the wall? Weight issues?

    BTW, I don't recall that Tesla has said anything about replacement costs yet, but I may just have missed it.
     
  17. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight _____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White

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    You're a Roadster owner, what did they tell you that you could expect when you bought the car?

    They were selling Roadster owners replacement battery packs. In order to sell the replacement you would have to tell a customer when and why you would need to replace the battery!? I don't think anyone would buy a replacement battery pack nor do I think Tesla would offer it, if there was only a 1% loss of range after 5, 8 or 10 years.
     
  18. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    I think 70% to 80% degradation after 8 years (100k miles) is a good guess. Afterall, any "actual data" they put out would only be using some accelerated aging lab tests - which are also just estimates.
     
  19. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    You should plan on getting a new battery after 8 years/100k miles. After that the capacity degradation would be unpredictable and won't be linear. The good news is that in 8 years the battery would be much cheaper than it is today.

    I'm conservatively assuming the 160 mile pack will give 100 miles of heated freeway travel - when charged in range mode when new. You would probably see little degradation in the first few years.

    In about 5 years when you may start seeing degradation, the charging infrastructure should be much better. You should be able to recharge at your destination easily. So, I'd not worry too much about that right now.
     
  20. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    #20 VolkerP, Jan 3, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
    Hi Rifleman,

    A data sheet with Panasonic cell properties was posted here:
    Tesla probably uses the CGR-18650CH cell with ~2200mAh for the 40kWh pack. See page 4. The cycle diagram in the lower right corner shows that the cell degrades to 1700mAh after 500 full cycles, that's 77%. Your daily commute of 80 miles would be half a cycle. Two half cycles still are better for battery life than a full cycle. But with 200 work days you rack up 1600 half cycles and 128k miles in 8 years. You pass the battery warranty mile limit at 6.25 years. If you find your battery is at 75% of original capacity then, Tesla would refute a warranty claim by you. If you charge at work, you still can do your commute for many years to come, though.
     

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