Ads which illustrate why I am so pissed about Tesla's marketing of the 160

[Doug_G]

I should point out that the Model S includes some thing important we didn't expect. The Roadster came with only a 110V plug. Adding NEMA 14-50 cost $2000 more. Adding J1772 cost $750 more. Both of those are included with the Model S, no extra charge. A very pleasant surprise!

 

[dsm363]

I should point out that the Model S includes some thing important we didn't expect. The Roadster came with only a 110V plug. Adding NEMA 14-50 cost $2000 more. Adding J1772 cost $750 more. Both of those are included with the Model S, no extra charge. A very pleasant surprise!

Exactly. I think it has more to do with a new company with many moving parts (marketing, engineering, management..etc) that weren't always on the same page during development. I'm surprised at the level of anger and complaining by some here. I totally understand why some people may feel disappointed but as has been said many times, it is a fully refundable deposit and probably 10 months before the 40 kWh pack cars will be delivered so plenty of time to give Tesla time to explain and cancel your reservation if you're unhappy. Maybe I should start an 'I'm happy with Tesla' thread.

 

[dsm363]

jimbakker666: The first image you're using as proof to complain about their deceit says 'up to 300 miles' a few images to the right on the same page! Was it potenially confusing? Sure but not proof Tesla was out to get you. This certainly didn't require it's own thread. You've made your outrage well know in other places.

 

[jimbakker666]

jimbakker666: The first image you're using as proof to complain about their deceit says 'up to 300 miles' a few images to the right on the same page! Was it optionally confusing? Sure but not proof Tesla was out to get you. This certainly didn't require it's own thread. You've made your outrage well know in other places.

I know. Was it optionally confusing on Tesla's part? I don't know, why did they say two different things in the same place?

Was the 0-60 time optionally confusing? The 45-minute charge time?

BTW, what price was noted, consistently, with all of that information? I certainly wasn't confused as to how much all that performance cost!

Sorry that I dare criticize Tesla, but that's what I do when I see things which I believe to be improper, and I would much rather be wrong in criticism than right in blissful ignorance. In the face of excess criticism, a company or person will take extra care in what they do to avoid problems. In the face of yes men, that same company or person will take advantage to the full extent allowed, ahem, by law.

You should check out the Tesla forums, there are others complaining of the same issues (and Sig reservation holders as well). I am by no means the only person raising issues. In fact, some of them have considered canceling based on the very same thing I've cited, principal. They've also pointed out their confusion over the charging time and 0-60 performance. How can so many have gotten it wrong?

Give Tesla a pass all you want on these things, but if they begin turning people off in large numbers, they will not have a company. If you have reserved a vehicle, then it is in your best interest to fix Tesla's issues, not ignore them. As a shareholder, it is in my best interest as well.

If you don't like my posts, than don't read them. Instead of here, would you prefer I write an article outlining my thoughts for an auto magazine website? Make my criticism of Tesla's marketing practices and lack of functionality in their $50k luxury vehicle available to the public at large? I would rather not, as I want Tesla to succeed. I want them to do so honestly though, placing customers before shareholders.

BTW, no need for the snide remark. I'm not criticizing you, I'm criticizing Tesla.

 

[AnOutsider]

I would note that most of the blogs so far on the released pricing have been very positive.

 

[jimbakker666]

I would note that most of the blogs so far on the released pricing have been very positive.

I'm okay with the pricing too. The tech package might be a little overpriced but overall it seems reasonable to me and if everything else was straight, there'd be no complaints from me.

 

[dsm363]

What I said wasn't snide but that's how you interpreted it. How does their $50k car lack functionality? Will it take at minimum 2 hours to fully charge instead of 45min to an hour? Yes but the car can still drive. Did you ever consider that they changed things in the last few months due to warranty concerns with the smaller pack instead of a desire to cheat you?
No one is arguing with you that their earlier marketing material wasn't potentially (I corrected this a minute later) confusing, just with your description of their motives. I"m not blissfully ignorant of that fact.

See Todd's post. Very well written and right on point.
Putting Everything into Perspective

All of my favorite features (keyless entry, iPhone app to remotely cool car, 17in touch screen, backup camera) are in the base model as well with the tech package. I'll probably rarely use super charging anyway (largely because it will take many years to get to Texas).

 

[jimbakker666]

What I said wasn't snide but that's how you interpreted it.

Asking me 'Was it optionally confusing?' sounds snide to me, but regardless I see that you've changed this word to potentially which is entirely different. Cool.

How does their $50k car lack functionality? Will it take at minimum 2 hours to fully charge instead of 45min to an hour?

Isn't it four hours to recharge, unless I opt for the extra charger upsell? There's a big difference between an hour at Denny's to recharge and 4 hours at Denny's to recharge. I'm not sure I'd be capable of re-entering my vehicle after 4 hours stuffing my face in that place. Reaching full charge in two hours for an upsell? Not cool man.

Did you ever consider that they changed things in the last few months due to warranty concerns with the smaller pack instead of a desire to cheat you?

Yes, I did. I haven't heard any communication from them on this front though, but if this is the case, I'd surely sign a waiver accepting a diminished battery warranty in order to have the ability to quick-charge (depending on the new warranty mileage of course). The response from Tesla on the quick-charge issue has, unfortunately, been crickets. Considering that they want to upsell me on an extra charger, I don't imagine they'd be keen on letting me get away with that whole quick-charge thing for free. But I'll listen to what they have they say, whenever they get around to saying it.

 

[dsm363]

Asking me 'Was it optionally confusing?' sounds snide to me, but regardless I see that you've changed this word to potentially which is entirely different. Cool.

Yes. That was a typo, sorry. I'm not even sure what optionally confusing means myself=)

Yes, you're correct on the 4 hours with only one 10kW charger. Most people I feel will rarely need the second 10kW charger for home charging but I can see how it would be nice for traveling (assuming you can find a J1772 80A charger which is rare). That's actually the rate I charge my Roadster at (40A) and it's more than enough for home. It's traveling where it gets tricky. I totally understand how you may feel mislead about the super charging but I honestly don't think Tesla set out to lie to anyone. They may have handled it poorly and their PR needs some work but I think that's the extent. I've never worked for an auto maker so I can only imagine what goes into launching a new car.

Give them some time to come up with a response on the super charging. As a public company, I'm sure they have to go through many channels to formulate a response. How often do you think you'd need to charge in 45 min? I've seen a few Nissan Leafs here in Texas I can't find a single quick charger.

 

[smorgasbord]

Isn't it four hours to recharge, unless I opt for the extra charger upsell? There's a big difference between an hour at Denny's to recharge and 4 hours at Denny's to recharge. I'm not sure I'd be capable of re-entering my vehicle after 4 hours stuffing my face in that place. Reaching full charge in two hours for an upsell? Not cool man.

I'm just wondering when you expect the first Denny's to install a Tesla Supercharger will be.

I'm also thinking the second charger costs less than we thought the UMC & J1772 adapter would cost.

 

[brianman]

I'm not even sure what optionally confusing means myself=)

I think it means you have to pay extra to be confused.

 

[AnOutsider]

I think it means you have to pay extra to be confused.

They've said nothing about this the while 2.5 years they've had my money!

 

[dsm363]

At this point, depending on any sort of quick or super charging (unless you happen to live somewhere where you know they're putting one) and buying an EV based on it's ability to quick/super charge is a mistake I think. You want to pick the battery pack that you can make a trip there and back without having to recharge for a large majority of your trips. You can still make trips with the public charging infrastructure (usually 30A) but you have to be very patient. No one said picking up a new technology and running with it would be easy. It will take time for the infrastructure to be built out to where gas stations are today (almost every corner and at most highway exits).

 

[Arnold Panz]

Hi Arnold,

The issue for me is that 0-60 performance and stated charge times were not listed as optional. They were presented as part of the $49k model, in fact the price was listed together with those specs. If Tesla knew those specs applied or likely applied to the more expensive variants, they simply could have quoted those estimated prices instead. They could have provided a simple matrix showing the target specs per model, then no harm no foul. If they really cared, the even could have stated that 'all specs are subject to change'. Nobody criticizes honesty.

I understand your frustration. My only point is that as a disinterested observer (I followed all the news carefully but had no skin in the game on what happened with the base car), I wasn't the least bit surprised that the stripped, base car is missing some basic functions that otherwise had been implied to be "standard" with all S cars. Maybe I'm overly cynical/skeptical and attuned to corporate double-speak, but it was always pretty apparent to me, reading between the lines, that some basics were going to be unavailable in the base car.

And I'm no apologist for Tesla on this, as my posts on the Sig have shown. But other than the Sig premium, I felt that all of the pricing basically matched my expectations, for better or worse. I certainly didn't sense any bait and switch, not even on the Sig pricing (although there was NO hint that was coming), but clearly on some of these issues, in hindsight, they could have done a better job of foretelling or implying what would be the likely options/pricing range. However, I totally chalk it up to a young company getting its sea legs and making rookie mistakes, not any intentional bait and switch or conspiracy to jack up the number of reservations.

 

[brianman]

However, I totally chalk it up to a young company getting its sea legs and making rookie mistakes, not any intentional bait and switch or conspiracy to jack up the number of reservations.

Good point that I neglected to mention previously. This definitely factors into my interpretation of recent events.

If Fiskar behaved similarly, I would interpret it the same way. If Ford did it, I would interpret more harshly.

 

[richkae]

I viewed their webpages and brochures as "This is the car we hope to build, these are our goals. If we can make a car like this do you want one?"
Me: "Yes I do, in fact I'll give you a deposit so I can get one of the first ones and I sure hope you succeed."
Complete options, specs and pricing had not been announced, now they have. Now you judge success and decide if you still want one.

I see success, and I still want one.

 

[EVNow]

However, I totally chalk it up to a young company getting its sea legs and making rookie mistakes, not any intentional bait and switch or conspiracy to jack up the number of reservations.

I don't even think it is just a young company thing. Nissan made a lot of mistakes too.

Here's the 21 page angry thread when we found out qc wouldn't be on sv and costs extra on sl.

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - This just in : $ for L3 charging option.

 

[dsm363]

Yes, I did. I haven't heard any communication from them on this front though, but if this is the case, I'd surely sign a waiver accepting a diminished battery warranty in order to have the ability to quick-charge (depending on the new warranty mileage of course). The response from Tesla on the quick-charge issue has, unfortunately, been crickets. Considering that they want to upsell me on an extra charger, I don't imagine they'd be keen on letting me get away with that whole quick-charge thing for free. But I'll listen to what they have they say, whenever they get around to saying it.

If I can ask, what area of the country do you live in? If it's not California, Washington state, or the east coast along NY to DC then a Tesla Super Charger every 100 miles is a few years off. Until I see one every 100 miles along a major highway in Texas or along I80 in Iowa for example, then I wouldn't buy a car depending on Super Charger access if I lived in those areas.

Tesla isn't trying to upsell you an extra charger out of some unsavory plan, they're actually trying to make the car more affordable. By not including the second 10kw charger, they shaved maybe $1000 off the cost of the car. The Roadster can charge at up to 70A yet even the owners with the HPC rarely charge at 70A (even then it's only at home or at another Roadster owner's house also with an HPC). The only way you'd need a second 10kW charger was if you were planning on charging at over 40A at home or you had access to a Tesla HPC at 80A or knew of a J1772 charger at 80A. Do a search within 100 miles of your house and let us know if you can find a J1772 80A charger. I'd be amazed if they exist although it's possible. The only one I know of in the state was one I along with a Roadster owner talked a hotel in Texas into installing for their guests.

How about the 50kW Nissan DC fast chargers? Do you have one every 50 miles from your house? If not, this points out how long and difficult building out this kind of network is. It takes time and if you were counting on a Super Charging network to travel in either the 40, 60 or 85 kWh battery pack Model S, you'll likely be disappointed for a few years. Travel is still possible you just need to depend on nice Model S owners with a Tesla HPC or networks like mychargepoint.net (J1772 at 30A) or campgrounds that have 240V 50A NEMA 14-50 outlets.

My point is I understand you're upset but you have to put it all in context about if super charging was something you really need and were depending on to travel. If you're lucky enough to be able to keep an ICE around as a backup car or if you have one if your family to keep for longer trips then your problem is less of an issue. Not ideal and still a problem since you can't drive your Model S 100% of the time but not a show stopper. How many trips a year would you require charging while traveling? If the 40 kWh pack doesn't meet 95+% of your travel and a larger pack does, that might be the way to go if it's possible.

 

[mnx]

Excellent post dsm363! Thanks for putting the lack of super charging in perspective. A Tesla Supercharger is a bit of a unicorn at this point. So is ChaDeMo and J1772 at this point in my part of the world.

- mnx

If I can ask, what area of the country do you live in? If it's not California, Washington state, or the east coast along NY to DC then a Tesla Super Charger every 100 miles is a few years off. Until I see one every 100 miles along a major highway in Texas or along I80 in Iowa for example, then I wouldn't buy a car depending on Super Charger access if I lived in those areas.

Tesla isn't trying to upsell you an extra charger out of some unsavory plan, they're actually trying to make the car more affordable. By not including the second 10kw charger, they shaved maybe $1000 off the cost of the car. The Roadster can charge at up to 70A yet even the owners with the HPC rarely charge at 70A (even then it's only at home or at another Roadster owner's house also with an HPC). The only way you'd need a second 10kW charger was if you were planning on charging at over 40A at home or you had access to a Tesla HPC at 80A or knew of a J1772 charger at 80A. Do a search within 100 miles of your house and let us know if you can find a J1772 80A charger. I'd be amazed if they exist although it's possible. The only one I know of in the state was one I along with a Roadster owner talked a hotel in Texas into installing for their guests.

How about the 50kW Nissan DC fast chargers? Do you have one every 50 miles from your house? If not, this points out how long and difficult building out this kind of network is. It takes time and if you were counting on a Super Charging network to travel in either the 40, 60 or 85 kWh battery pack Model S, you'll likely be disappointed for a few years. Travel is still possible you just need to depend on nice Model S owners with a Tesla HPC or networks like mychargepoint.net (J1772 at 30A) or campgrounds that have 240V 50A NEMA 14-50 outlets.

My point is I understand you're upset but you have to put it all in context about if super charging was something you really need and were depending on to travel. If you're lucky enough to be able to keep an ICE around as a backup car or if you have one if your family to keep for longer trips then your problem is less of an issue. Not ideal and still a problem since you can't drive your Model S 100% o the time but not a show stopper. How many trips a year would you require charging while traveling? If the 40 kWh pack doesn't meet 95+% of your travel and a larger pack does, that might be the way to go if it's possible.

 

[onlinespending]

If I can ask, what area of the country do you live in? If it's not California, Washington state, or the east coast along NY to DC then a Tesla Super Charger every 100 miles is a few years off.

What if Tesla decided to remove Supercharging capabilities from all models, including your fully loaded Sig? How would you feel? The fact that DC quick-charging isn't available much at the moment is of little consolation for those that were led to believe it was a feature of the Model S (i.e. all battery pack options). The technology will come eventually and I think people that made reservations on the Model S (a rather expensive car) wanted the security in knowing that their car will support those technologies as they become more ubiquitous.