Ads which illustrate why I am so pissed about Tesla's marketing of the 160

[efusco]

I for one whole heartedly support Tesla. I think all this point by point comparisons and hanging on to single words like "base" and "up to" from documents from 3 years ago when the car was nothing but vaporware is silly. Time to grow up. If you can do better no one's stopping you. You don't like Tesla's effort, fine go buy another car but quit playing victim and poo-pooing those that have stuck their necks out there...

Completely agree with this POV. Every concept car goes though this and almost every car has a premium for anything above the base--and a special edition, you bet you're paying a premium. I understand that this is a lot of money, trust me, I really understand and am going to clearly have to make some compromises on the vehicle I want vs what I can stretch to afford. But all this other hair splitting is just silly.

 

[dsm363]

I for one whole heartedly support Tesla. I think all this point by point comparisons and hanging on to single words like "base" and "up to" from documents from 3 years ago when the car was nothing but vaporware is silly. Time to grow up. If you can do better no one's stopping you. You don't like Tesla's effort, fine go buy another car but quit playing victim and poo-pooing those that have stuck their necks out there...

Well said. While Tesla certainly could have been more clear when it became apparent to them the different performance specs for the 40 and 60 kWh packs (who knows if that was this summer or a year ago), people have to deal with what Tesla is providing now. Lobbying Tesla to include quick charging in the 40 kWh pack I think is worth it but no amount of hang wringing here will get that done. I agree with the the people about making quick charging avaliable in the 40 kWh pack (not super charging if that would damage the smaller pack) but Tesla may have combined these concerns with a business decision to push the larger packs.

 

[Trnsl8r]

I for one whole heartedly support Tesla. I think all this point by point comparisons and hanging on to single words like "base" and "up to" from documents from 3 years ago when the car was nothing but vaporware is silly. Time to grow up. If you can do better no one's stopping you. You don't like Tesla's effort, fine go buy another car but quit playing victim and poo-pooing those that have stuck their necks out there...

+1

What I think many forget is that the car has been "under development" all this time. Easy confusion, since any other car company doesn't reveal anything about a model until they're done with the development and all facts are finalized (that, and that this is to some extents Tesla's "first rodeo", unlike other manufacturers who may be better at predicting). The reservation agreement (anybody read that?) even says that the all facts about the car are TBD and that the car may not even get made in the first place. I for one am impressed that Tesla came as close to predicting the future as they did.

 

[Norbert]

[...] but Tesla may have combined these concerns with a business decision to push the larger packs.

...and to introduce new technology as a good solution at a higher price point, which in the beginning it requires to work well, and then to reduce the cost, as opposed to try start at a lower price point with not so good solutions. Due to the relatively higher stress on the 40 kWh pack during driving, QC might have to be reduced to maybe 35 kW, instead of the 42 kW which would be proportional to 90 kW for the 85 kWh pack. That wouldn't be a great solution compared to the Leaf's 50 kW. The Roadster didn't have fast charging at all (though almost 20 kW with the built-in charger), so obviously this is a first for Tesla (and, in a sense, for Panasonic). We shouldn't forget that Nissan is loosing money on the Leaf, due to its battery, aside from Tesla not (yet) having the same means as Nissan to be active around lower price points. So I don't think the base Model S would have to match every feature the Leaf has. You do get a luxury sedan with lots of unmatched features, and a larger range with home charging.

 

[brianman]

I for one whole heartedly support Tesla. I think all this point by point comparisons and hanging on to single words like "base" and "up to" from documents from 3 years ago when the car was nothing but vaporware is silly. Time to grow up. If you can do better no one's stopping you. You don't like Tesla's effort, fine go buy another car but quit playing victim and poo-pooing those that have stuck their necks out there...

The tone here I have a little trouble with. There's a "cool off and consider" period that some will be going through for a bit (so until New Year's roughly). As supporter of Tesla, your energy should be directed at helping people through this phase as retained sales rather than pushing them away.

That said, I'm somewhat surprised at the folks that are jumping to adjust their reservation (or cancel it). The new information is less than a week old and it's a holiday period, so responses from Tesla are likely slowed. Making a move in your reservation before, say, January 6th is foolish IMO.

 

[EVNow]

It's the fact that it's not on the options list that is the problem. If they have to make it an option to hit $50k, I think people would understand.

Right.

Though, I wonder whether we are barking up the wrong tree. What we really need is a CHAdeMO adopter that works with the 160 miler as well.

 

[Robert.Boston]

What we really need is a CHAdeMO adopter that works with the 160 miler as well.

+1
And Tesla can do this without backtracking on anything it's formally announced. Providing more interoperability with the charging infrastructure is a positive.

 

[richkae]

+1
And Tesla can do this without backtracking on anything it's formally announced. Providing more interoperability with the charging infrastructure is a positive.

A CHAdeMO adapter that provides any level of charging will be useful, even if it is only 20kW. There will be more CHAdeMO outlets available than 20kW J1772s, or even Tesla Superchargers.
They may have chosen a chemistry that does not support 65kW charging or even 50kW charging, but surely it supports more than 20kW.

The question to Tesla should not be: "Will you provide a CHAdeMO adapter?" The question should be: "How much will the CHAdeMO adapter cost? And when I get my CHAdeMO adapater, what charge rate will the car support?"
Ask now. Ask often.

 

[rlawson4]

People seem to miss the point that Tesla needs to turn a profit in order to succeed. Anyone that claims that Tesla should have known the production cost of the vehicle in 2009 or the performance specifications has a screw loose. I don't know the cost of a gallon of milk next week. It is admirable that they came in at the starting price point of 50K less the tax incentive. I fully expected that the car would have few standard features and many options. I expected the 17" screen to be an option. I think people would not be bitching about the tech package if it included the 17" inch screen while the base model would not have it. In fact, from a marketing perspective that would have worked better. People would see the tech package as a greater value if it had the screen. So, the only critique I have of Tesla is the should have stripped the base model more to make the tech package appear a better value. It's all in the marketing. I plan on a 85KW Battery vehicle with several options. I planned on spending 75-85K on the car when I ordered it. I will read the reviews of the completed vehicle and then make my final decision to buy. Since the deposit I have (and everyone else) is refundable, then if you don't like the price of the car get a refund and move on. Otherwise, shut up. No one is forcing you to buy it. If Tesla cannot make money at the price point sold, it will fail. Is that a better idea?

 

[brianman]

Anyone that claims that Tesla should have known the production cost of the vehicle in 2009 or the performance specifications has a screw loose. I don't know the cost of a gallon of milk next week.

Seriously. Or butter.

 

[Doug_G]

One reason they didn't remove the 17" screen from the base units is that the techs will use it extensively during testing. Also they would have to massively redesign the dash, and would probably have to put a different screen in anyway.

 

[Norbert]

One reason they didn't remove the 17" screen from the base units is that the techs will use it extensively during testing. Also they would have to massively redesign the dash, and would probably have to put a different screen in anyway.

And it wouldn't really be a Model S anymore.

BTW, the turn-by-turn instructions include maps stored locally.

 

[shark2k]

...I expected the 17" screen to be an option. I think people would not be bitching about the tech package if it included the 17" inch screen while the base model would not have it. In fact, from a marketing perspective that would have worked better. People would see the tech package as a greater value if it had the screen. So, the only critique I have of Tesla is the should have stripped the base model more to make the tech package appear a better value...

Except that Tesla (Elon) has said from pretty much the beginning that the 17" screen would be available on all models of the Model S. Elon made it a pretty big point if I recall correctly.

-Shark2k

 

[rlawson4]

My main point is that it was impossible to know in 2009 that cost of development and production of the vehicle. Advertising brochures are not legal offers of anything. Open up tomorrow's Sunday paper and you will see hundreds of car ads. Many promise vehicles at sale prices far below ordinary pricing. After reading the ads go to the car dealership of your choice and see if you can buy any of the vehicles at the advertised price. Advertising is not a legal offer to sell. That being said, Tesla did their best to bring the car to market at a similar price point plus options. I never understand why people complain about prices. The market sets the price. If they sell the vehicle at the prices they have presented, then those prices are what the market will bare. If they sell out the vehicle at those prices then they should raise the price. If they cannot sell enough vehicles at the prices presented then the price should go down. If the market price goes too low to make a profit, then Tesla goes out of business. So, if you are willing to pay 50-90K for your next electric car, then buy it. Otherwise, vote with your $ and do not buy it. Complaining is not how the market sets prices. Your decision to buy sets the market price. As I said before, stop bitching about it and vote with your dollars.

 

[Beavis]

I can understand the disappointment at the 0-60 times but they are giving everyone that has that issue 1 year notice in advance of the car's arrival. As for supercharging, it is a technical issue with the size of the battery pack. Kind of like trying to fill a glass of water with a fire hose.

 

[Mycroft]

They know about the technical reasons kroneal, they're angry because they feel Tesla misled them. Tesla should have said up front that the 160 mile battery couldn't accelerate to 60 at the same speed as the 300.

 

[Beavis]

Misled? Come on, they were warned one year in advance of production of their car.

 

[Mycroft]

No, because all the website said was that the Model S went from 0-60 in 5.6 secs. Also, at some point they had announced a supercharging system of some kind but didn't say that the 160 car would be inelligible.

 

[Beavis]

I still come back to one year in advance. If there was some intent to mislead in order to get someone's deposit, they would not have disclosed the 0-60 times until the cars were nearer to production. The idea that they are trying to mislead is a case of overreaction. They certainly could have done a better Job of managing expectations, though. I guess they should have had the legal department write some caviat language for the site.

 

[tnawara]

They also didn't say that it *would* be eligible.

Tesla has said all along that details could change and that as those details were released reservation holders would be given the option to change their minds. I understand that some of these details are not matching some people's utopian mental models of their Model S, but those people really need to take a deep breath.