After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[EVNow]

It is good to build up consensus on a public forum for a class action lawsuit and you and your cohorts are trying to block.

If you have a large investment in Tesla, how exactly does a class action suit help ? You are likely to lose more on the stock than whatever you might get back - unless your investment is in puts.

 

[svusa]

If you have a large investment in Tesla, how exactly does a class action suit help ? You are likely to lose more on the stock than whatever you might get back - unless your investment is in puts.

Not everyone is motivated to make money on their failure. I think it is unethical to sell something that you can't deliver but I understand also some people are ok with giving them a pass.

 

[Knightshade]

I think it is unethical to sell something that you can't deliver

But there keeps being no evidence they can't deliver.

Or that they don't still intend to.

Certainly they're later than expectations, but it's not like they announced "Oh hey, we're just ended FSD development and keeping your money"

As noted- EAP initial features were later than expected too... and there WAS a class action over it. Lawyers got millions, owners got like $150 on average.


If you want actual compensation and actually believe you are entitled to it a class action is the dumbest possible route to take.


Small claims is probably the best, with arbitration being after that, and both miles ahead of class action.

 

[svusa]

But there keeps being no evidence they can't deliver.

Or that they don't still intend to.

you can't have indefinite timelines to deliver the product and a lot of folks have presented facts about how Tesla marketed their FSD product. What is the evidence that they plan to deliver the final product, by what time? keeping regulatory approval aside, the system can't even see road closed signs after 4 years of development. In fact, Tesla finally admitted their system is Level 2 ADAS which they could have told consumers a long time back.


As I have noted before if the feature is not available during the useful life of the product then Tesla can't keep customers' money in their pocket!

That being said, I think you seem to imply that nothing wrong has happened here, and all I'm saying is it has. If they deliver FSD by end of the next year 2022... I have no problem. I can wait for one more year, 4+ years is a long enough wait at that point.

 

[Terminator857]

If you have a large investment in Tesla, how exactly does a class action suit help ? You are likely to lose more on the stock than whatever you might get back - unless your investment is in puts.

Long term is is good for the company if the CEO learns not to rip off it's customers. Or if goals aren't meant, i.e. automatic driving in city streets in 2019, then offer people a refund or give them what they want, such as be able to transfer FSD to a future vehicle.

I'm not worried about the price of the stock. Elon's focus on software is going to pay dividends down the road. But it is a long road for FSD, and Elon should have learned something about being wrong on every long term prediction / claim about FSD since 2015. I hope California or some other entity bears down on Elon and stops this full self driving shenanigans. It isn't full self driving, never has been full self driving capable and won't be for many years. Even Elon claimed that an A.I. breakthrough is needed for FSD. It is disreputable and dishonest to sell a product that requires an unknown breakthrough.

 

[svusa]

If you want actual compensation and actually believe you are entitled to it a class action is the dumbest possible route to take.


Small claims is probably the best, with arbitration being after that, and both miles ahead of class action.

I value your opinion and certainly, I'll take legal opinion into the account as I'm no an expert at this - may be small claim court is the best way to go forward if Tesla fails to deliver the final product.

hopefully, consumer awareness will prevent others to fall into this trap and not waste their hard-earned 10K.

 

[Knightshade]

you can't have indefinite timelines to deliver the product

It will be delivered when it works.

Since nobody has ever made this product before nobody can really know when that is.

See again the Elon quote from 2018 explaining this.

and a lot of folks have presented facts about how Tesla marketed their FSD product. What is the evidence that they plan to deliver the final product, by what time? keeping regulatory approval aside, the system can't even see road closed signs after 4 years of development.

This again is not correct.

It can see them and there's any number of FSD beta videos showing it do so.

What it can't do is see them, and properly react to them, 100% of the time. Hence why it's still an L2 system.

In fact, Tesla finally admitted their system is Level 2 ADAS which they could have told consumers a long time back.

They did. In 2016.

The system as widely released has been L2- and the manual explicitly tells you that- since launch.

They intend to eventually improve the system beyond that in the future of course. Which they ALSO told you in 2016. Note the word future.

That being said, I think you seem to imply that nothing wrong has happened here , and all I'm saying is it has

Define "wrong"

Legally, they told you during the purchase there was no defined delivery date and that delivery was dependent on many factors include some outside their direct control.

They told you all current features were L2 at the time you bought them too.

Now, has Elon consistently been overly optimistic about how soon their development will move past L2? Sure. But enthusiasm isn't illegal-- and stating things you believe are true at the time is literally not fraud

You might still consider them "wrong" but that's a lot more subjective thing.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Webeevdrivers]

On further investigation, you're right. ADS only applies to level 3-5.

However, nothing in Tesla's description of fsd indicates that it's a level 3 feature. It seems a level 2 fsd beta would satisfy the description.

Sorry. What does ADS mean in this context. Thankyou.

 

[powertoold]

Sorry. What does ADS mean in this context. Thankyou.

Automated driving system, per the SAE definitions

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Automated driving system, per the SAE definitions

Thank you.

 

[svusa]

my 1998 Hyundai came with FSD. I can press the button and the car would maintain the speed!

 

[Knightshade]

my 1998 Hyundai came with FSD. I can press the button and the car would maintain the speed!

Did it slow down when there was slower traffic and also autosteer in your lane?

Because Teslas do that, even without FSD. They do considerably more with it.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

The system as widely released has been L2- and the manual explicitly tells you that- since launch.

Tesla consistently tells you two things that are not in conflict:
- Beta features pre-rereleased for FSD as of today require human supervision (and thus are thus by definition L2)
- FSD feature as a whole will deliver full-self driving later when it is ready (L5)

Current description of FSD reads:

The currently enabled Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.
[This implies L2 today or potentially L3 later]

Full autonomy will be dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capabilities evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
["Full autonomy" refers to previous statement of L2 meaning non-autonomous. This leaves us with L4 and L5. ]

Description of FSD computer repeats the same in different words

Will the FSD computer make my car fully autonomous?
Not yet. All Tesla cars require active driver supervision and are not autonomous.
[Would imply L2]

With the FSD computer, we expect to achieve a new level of autonomy as we gain billions of miles of experience using our features.
[Now they even refer to "levels of autonomy". This sentence could imply anything between L3 and L5]

The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions.
[Here the message is significantly toned down from 2016: Not only feature requires "extensive validation", but also they acknowledge that they have not yet achieved sufficient reliability]

Tesla has toned down their language on how strongly they claim FSD will deliver eventually deliver L5:
- Around 2016-2018, marketing materials clearly indicated that what you are buying into is a system that will eventually be L5
- Today they still are referring to "eventual Full Self-Driving Capacity", acknowledging that it is something more than non-autonomous driver assistant features that are activated

Meanwhile, CEO has consistently communicated both in unofficial (interviews) and in official contexts (investor presentations) about timelines and that FSD actually means L5 and robotaxi network.

Again, these are not inconsistent by any means. Tesla clearly believes and aims to deliver L5. Downshift

 

[svusa]

- Around 2016-2018, marketing materials clearly indicated that what you are buying into is a system that will eventually be L5

It is Fool's Self Driving!! ahh, now I know...

 

[EVNow]

I value your opinion and certainly, I'll take legal opinion into the account as I'm no an expert at this - may be small claim court is the best way to go forward if Tesla fails to deliver the final product.

hopefully, consumer awareness will prevent others to fall into this trap and not waste their hard-earned 10K.

From what I'm reading - Tesla can move the case from small claims to mandatory arbitration (assuming you didn't opt out of it in the first 30 days). I've heard arbitration is usually very business friendly. Anyway, good luck.

 

[EVNow]

Long term is is good for the company if the CEO learns not to rip off it's customers. Or if goals aren't meant, i.e. automatic driving in city streets in 2019, then offer people a refund or give them what they want, such as be able to transfer FSD to a future vehicle.

Definitely Tesla can afford to pay back non-revenue recognized portion of the FSD to those who want it. But not prior to 2020. It definitely helped them keep (barely) afloat in the dark days of Q1 '19.

But you are absolutely wrong about one thing - CEO is not trying to "rip off" customers. He genuinely believed they could achieve FSD by whenever he said they will have FSD. You can say thats not a reasonable assumption - but then, Elon is not a reasonable man.

I'd be angry if Tesla wasn't trying their damnest best to get FSD working. Personally I think this "class action" is an affront to all the hundreds of Engineers who probably work 60+ hours a week, every week to make this happen. It will never happen because of legal restrictions - and if it did - will do a lot of damage to Tesla's reputation - exactly what the shorts and enemies of Tesla (like other OEMs, gas companies etc) want.

 

[rxlawdude]

My subjective experience as a customer is that I have not been delivered what I purchased. As an investor, I am not disappointed even if I do think the statements have been wildly misleading: TSLA has simply yielded amazingly good ROI. Others are free to have very different opinions.

Not specific to you, but note the ethical divergence a dual allegiance can create.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Not specific to you, but note the ethical divergence a dual allegiance can create.

Yes. This also unfortunately polarizes the discussions in forums like this.

I am first to admit that if I would still have a position in TSLA, I would either be quiet or even find ways to defend Tesla on non-delivery of FSD. Advocating holding Tesla accountable would just self-inflict damage to my own investment.

Now that I am not an investor any more, it is easy to be unbiased and just look at the issue from customer point of view.

Just a thought: Would be useful if a forum like this would allow members voluntarily disclose if they are investors, short or do no have a position in TSLA. Also one could disclose if they are a customer and own/lease a Tesla.

For the record: I do not own or short any TSLA. I do own and drive Model S from 2017.

 

[Terminator857]

... CEO is not trying to "rip off" customers.

Trying or not trying he has done it.

He genuinely believed they could achieve FSD by whenever he said they will have FSD.

No he is a dreamer and wanted to see it happen. As is common with startup leaders they set unrealistic expectations and drive hard to see that the expectations are met. I personally know some past autopilot engineers. If you ask them about Elon they roll their eyes. If someone on the team told him it couldn't be done, they got fired. So few dare to tell him the truth. And yes, I know one individual who told him the truth and got fired for it, in 2017.

Personally I think this "class action" is an affront to all the hundreds of Engineers who probably work 60+ hours a week, every week to make this happen.

You might be surprised how many would prefer that realistic expectations be set.

... will do a lot of damage to Tesla's reputation - exactly what the shorts and enemies of Tesla (like other OEMs, gas companies etc) want.

Will do a lot to ground Elon in reality, and ground customer expectations.

 

[rxlawdude]

Yes. This also unfortunately polarizes the discussions in forums like this.

I am first to admit that if I would still have a position in TSLA, I would either be quiet or even find ways to defend Tesla on non-delivery of FSD. Advocating holding Tesla accountable would just self-inflict damage to my own investment.

Now that I am not an investor any more, it is easy to be unbiased and just look at the issue from customer point of view.

Just a thought: Would be useful if a forum like this would allow members voluntarily disclose if they are investors, short or do no have a position in TSLA. Also one could disclose if they are a customer and own/lease a Tesla.

For the record: I do not own or short any TSLA. I do own and drive Model S from 2017.

I have two Teslas with FSD (2017 M3 and 2020 MY), the M3 FSD purchased in 2019 while the more ambitious marketing fluff suggested L5 type functionality, and own fewer than 70 shares of TSLA (which would have been hundreds had I been brave and held through Mar 2020).

I try to be balanced in quite seriously recommending those feeling they got screwed on FSD to take it to Small Claims Court (or arbitration if you're brave). Multiple owner wins in SCCs across the country would get Tesla's attention. Arbitration may muzzle successful consumers with an NDA.