Alternative to UK VED (car tax)

[MrBadger]

Plugging the loss of VED will be needed to prevent a “black hole” in the finances. Road use pricing remains a consideration.

Fuel and excise duty must be replaced with new tax, MPs say

The UK will be left with a £35bn "black hole" as motorists switch to electric cars, says Transport committee.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Mrklaw]

Road price is inevitable as it also provides an excuse for more cameras and potentially associated revenue from speeding, catching uninsured drivers etc.

but if you want to transition to EVs, you could temporarily increase the fuel duty or ICE VED. whatever I assume we have a couple of years - road pricing will require infrastructure that’ll take time, and they won’t want to stall EV takeup at this point.

 

[GlynG]

You would have to be naïve if you thought the government would give up easily the lost VED on electric cars, They have promoted EVs whilst they pretend to be environmental because its a vote winner but government always have a long term plan. They have been wanting to charge based on mileage for many years but it could be argued the motorist already does in that the majority of the price per litre of fuel is tax. The government did a similar thing when they actively promoted diesel over petrol, as people flocked towards diesel it suddenly became dearer than petrol due to taxation, why? because diesel powered vehicles travel many more miles per gallon - therefore tax revenue dropped - and later the emissions became a big issue for diesel so DPFs became the norm - pushing the cost to buy up - and with it the tax generated- the "New" dirty output supported cities introducing congestion charges.

This year all home charging points will have to have a separate meter - the only thing this is beneficial to is ensuring when charging your car you will pay a higher price per KWhr than your domestic use - and of course the full VAT rate rather than the 5% for domestic..
Charging per mile driven will undoubtedly be set at a rate that far exceeds the current predicted losses, but what we don't know is how much per mile that rate will be, or how mileage will be ascertained, so true to form a rate will be "Leaked" which will be outrageous followed by the real charge that will be considerably less and Joe Public will breath a sigh of relief and accept willingly the new charges.

On modern vehicles the technology will be already built into the car like Tesla, but older vehicles? well it could be to have a box fitted to determine mileage or those drivers will be charged the "Average" annual mileage or perhaps the annual mileage indicated to insurance companies when you take a policy or perhaps expand the ANPR network to automatically log a vehicles mileage on major roads.

One thing is for sure government will claw back all and a bit more of the lost revenue, the MPs own mileage will be low as most are based in London for at least half the week and driving in London is mainly short distances and will probably get their expenses increased anyway - and a pay rise for good measure.

 

[Garry TheBiz]

The most obvious way of charging mileage is to use the recorded mileage at the MOT test. After each MOT you receive a bill based on the mileage difference since your last MOT. Perhaps for the first 3 years you're charged a fixed cost, similar to current VED, after that it's based on miles driven.
It's a bit like being billed between electric meter ready - even if the time between MOT tests varies, you still get charged. If you retest after 6 months, you still get a charge on actual miles travelled.

 

[Masklin]

That only ~20% of revenue raised is actually spent on the roads goes some way towards explaining the awful, broken, damaged, pothole ridden state of far too many miles of them.

 

[pgkevet]

The most obvious way of charging mileage is to use the recorded mileage at the MOT test. After each MOT you receive a bill based on the mileage difference since your last MOT. Perhaps for the first 3 years you're charged a fixed cost, similar to current VED, after that it's based on miles driven.
It's a bit like being billed between electric meter ready - even if the time between MOT tests varies, you still get charged. If you retest after 6 months, you still get a charge on actual miles travelled.

Far too logical and too simple. Even if that approach is taken it'll be pre-pay on your expected mileage and adjust after the MOT reading. It;s much more likely to involve some overpriced black box in the car and a whole new network of readers - much like smart meters - put in version1 then invent V2 and rip out all the first ones, install a whole new transceiver system, develop a V3 that can actually read power points and selectively disconnect them etc.
You have to think about the techno company profits and back pockets.

 

[MrBadger]

The most obvious way of charging mileage is to use the recorded mileage at the MOT test.

What happens in years 0-2 when an MOT is not needed and some people will have got rid of the car before then, say short term finance arrangements.

 

[phil4]

On the basis the committee report wasn't so much about doing something "today", but rather putting a plan together so people buying in the future can make an informed choice (eg. you don't buy an EV planning based on it being cheaper, then find a month later it's not), I suspect much of this is "coming soon", with perhaps a plan in place by the end of this year, early next, and actual changes happening 2-3 years after that. If they do all this too soon, they'll all but completely stop the transition to EVs.

As mentioned above, there needs to be a way to spin out the work to an external company, so anything is possible. My guess is that cameras on the roads is the most likely. Since they can also then gradually roll them out on the busier and more congested roads first (usually closer to power/net connections also), and charge more for them in busier times. We'll likely then see further cameras rolled out gradually, and so plugging the price gap gradually.

They could do blackboxes in cars too. Other downsides, other upsides.

 

[MrBadger]

The transport industry has been on this for a very long time. I have previously mentioned several times in the past that Time and Use based solutions were the direction that the industry was looking. The technology has been around for ages in different forms, but is certainly relatively easy and quick to implement some of the solutions. I was a bit of an industry insider for a few years, albeit not involved on this aspect, but involved in knowledge exchange of which this was one topic I was involved in. Probably 5-6 years ago, the technology being talked about then was some form of, for a better word, passive 'tax disc' in the vehicle windscreen that could be remotely read - satellite was mentioned, but I cannot recall what, if any detail was mentioned. I suspect a variation of the european toll passes suited to more wider rollout. Since then, technology has marched on, and things like bluetooth technology can now be, and is, used to monitor movement.

Time and Use does not require blanket coverage. A significant benefit is to attach pricing to congestion, so only areas/routes that are of interest need to be monitored. If someone wants to hide and travel a long journey by back roads to avoid sensors, then good luck to them. It would also benefit the rural communities where there is more reliance on the motor vehicle and put more focus on areas with more existing infrastructure (easy to host) that would benefit from fewer vehicle use.

The biggest obstacle until now has been political will and a true need for change, but I think that will change. Technical ability has long been solved and cheaper/easier solutions continue to evolve. Timing will be everything. In a previous post on the subject I think I put a link to a current state of play document that would only be a year old and quite likely to be a source of information for the Government and media.

 

[Adopado]

Road price is inevitable as it also provides an excuse for more cameras and potentially associated revenue from speeding, catching uninsured drivers etc.

There’s already a network of cameras covering most trunk roads that are used for traffic management. None of these cameras have been used as speed cameras.

 

[yessuz]

The most obvious way of charging mileage is to use the recorded mileage at the MOT test. After each MOT you receive a bill based on the mileage difference since your last MOT. Perhaps for the first 3 years you're charged a fixed cost, similar to current VED, after that it's based on miles driven.
It's a bit like being billed between electric meter ready - even if the time between MOT tests varies, you still get charged. If you retest after 6 months, you still get a charge on actual miles travelled.

the car mileage corrections will be quite profitable business I see

 

[Mrklaw]

There’s already a network of cameras covering most trunk roads that are used for traffic management. None of these cameras have been used as speed cameras.

Maybe not accurate enough. Do you know if they have the resolution for ANPR which would be needed for road pricing, or only enough for traffic flow measurement?

 

[Andywil]

This year all home charging points will have to have a separate meter - the only thing this is beneficial to is ensuring when charging your car you will pay a higher price per KWhr than your domestic use - and of course the full VAT rate rather than the 5% for domestic..

Where did you get this from?

 

[Fursty Ferret]

provides an excuse for more cameras and potentially associated revenue from speeding

What's wrong with fining people for speeding and driving uninsured?

 

[fancealot]

[SNIP]

This year all home charging points will have to have a separate meter - the only thing this is beneficial to is ensuring when charging your car you will pay a higher price per KWhr than your domestic use - and of course the full VAT rate rather than the 5% for domestic..
Charging per mile driven will undoubtedly be set at a rate that far exceeds the current predicted losses, but what we don't know is how much per mile that rate will be, or how mileage will be ascertained, so true to form a rate will be "Leaked" which will be outrageous followed by the real charge that will be considerably less and Joe Public will breath a sigh of relief and accept willingly the new charges.

[SNIP]

Do you have a source for this?

 

[Masklin]

Can't they also use the chips in the covid vaccines for tracking when you're in a vehicle and then charging accordingly?

Whilst it's true to a degree already, the only apparent certainty in the future (apart from death and taxes) will be that there is zero privacy for anyone anywhere.

 

[GRiLLA]

Do you have a source for this?

It's not true, this is the actual recommendations that were published last year https://assets.publishing.service.g...residential-and-non-residential-buildings.pdf

 

[qwickshot]

Do you have a source for this?

even if it was true, you’d just plug in your granny lead and avoid it completely. It’s a bit of a flawed idea.


I’d fully expect that they’ll just tighten up the requirements about V5 registration documents, (E.g. you actually need prof of name, address etc) and then make VED start at £X00 and scale up based on WLTP consumption or glass of car. They’ll collect it via direct debit each month which they already have the infrastructure set up for.

I doubt we will end up with black boxes as the costs to administer are really high compared to the advantages of being able to charge lower mileage users less. A flare rate VED charge would be easier to implement and they could also apply it to ICE on top of fuel duty.

 

[phil4]

the costs to administer are really high compared to the advantages of being able to charge lower mileage users less. A flare rate VED charge would be easier to implement and they could also apply it to ICE on top of fuel duty.

They could have put fuel duty up and removed car tax, and the whole yearly hassle and cost of dealing with the DVLA for it. But they didn't. The reason the government spent £886,000,000 in 2018/19 wasn't because they needed it to, it's because they're bureaucratic and inefficient, Why would you think they they'd go for the simple and easy solution when they can go for something expensive?

 

[Gaz_]

Can't they also use the chips in the covid vaccines for tracking when you're in a vehicle and then charging accordingly?

Whilst it's true to a degree already, the only apparent certainty in the future (apart from death and taxes) will be that there is zero privacy for anyone anywhere.

I'll fill up near an airport then as they have to turn the 5g off so vaccinated people don't crash planes.