AMA about owning Modern Mercedes EVs

[Samurai51]

1 and 2) Yes, there is good growth in EVs and it will continue -- happy about that. But there is no plausible way to get it to 100% market share in the near-term -- the next 1-2 years.
3) I don't think we are arguing the same circumstances. I'm talking about someone not making much money and their current clunker is worn out. Probably affects almost no one on TMC, but there are many folks out there who cannot afford to sink much money at into a new or used vehicle of any kind. They live paycheck to paycheck, their credit is below average and even a $10k vehicle puts a strain on them. Those folks need that 2009 Camry with 192,000 miles. There isn't an EV equivalent of that yet.

 

[kpanda17]

3) economic demographics
high end buyers: supposedly progressives and green thinkers, no excuses, they have the money, talk environment but without solar and EVs buying action, terrible
Mid market: lots of tax money and trade in funds available as stated prior
Lower end: younger, our adult children, I put one in a M3RWD as a bridge car until M2, once M2 is here with lots of tax money help, they should switch to EVs, mine will
Lower lower end: used EVs coupled with tax credits, used bolts will work well here, are they readily available? What does the math look like?
Extreme low end: public transportation and maybe Robotaxi will help one day

 

[Samurai51]

Tesla continues to ramp up production as quickly as practical. M2 I'm guessing is at least a year away, at a minimum. They appear to be mostly focused on Cybertruck at the moment. Which I think Cybertruck will bring in a significant new segment of those high end and mid market buyers. The upcoming Cadillac Escalade EV could do that too, BUT...

GM has yet to produce any EV type in numbers anywhere remotely close to M3 or MY. Ditto Ford. Because when they increase the prices to be closer to break-even (forget profit), the things don't sell.

The Escalade EV looks really awesome. I personally won't be buying the first year production (because it will likely have tons of issues), but after that it might cross my mind. Problem is, no one should expect GM to make many of them -- they lose money. They've never even made more than 40,000 Bolts in a year, and it's their best seller.

So for those lower end buyers, there aren't enough Bolts to go around, and there will not be for the foreseeable future.

I think Jim Farley at Ford is genuinely trying to figure out a legitimate way forward, and the huge production complex they are building in west Tennessee should help a lot.

Mary Bera at GM? Pffffffft. She is full of bull-plop. Her strategy right now appears to be: Get to the point where we can say "GM makes 14 more EV models than does Tesla!" When asked, "Why don't you produce more than [X] thousand of any of them?" She and her team will always have a litany of excuses -- logistics issues, chip shortage, labor instability, weather, armed conflict between East and West Jerkwater, etc.

The real answer? We lose money on every EV because we can't figure out how to be as efficient as Tesla.

 

[kpanda17]

Cheapest ICE vehicle is $14K
Cheapest EV qual for $7500+$2000 = $16K
M2 math, $25K-$9.5K=$15.5K
What about after 2030 when the usa rebates end?
We also need +17% more tariff to hold BYD back until then

 

[holeydonut]

The proof is in the pudding in terms of how badly Mercedes whiffed on their EQS line for appeal into its target market. Because people in the broad EV market of buyers don't want these things haha.

But that means for those that do like the EQS, they are massive bargains. The EQS is super roomy, ultra smooth, tech-feature-rich, and has the full boat of amenities you would normally want in a real luxury car. Quality materials, no squeaks/rattles, and of course the panels all line up. If you're looking for a commuter EV, this thing can't be beat since you won't care about the charging network for commutes.

I get it, there are a ton of faults with the car, and obviously it looks like butt. Luckily the inside is what counts haha; and the inside is awesome.

With low demand (either awareness or conversion to sale), the MB dealers are struggling to give the things away. And the wholesale + retail-used car prices have catered on EQS sedans and SUVs. I'm leasing a well optioned EQS sedan for $660 a month (with California taxes and title/doc fees!). Or, you can buy this 2022 model year with 13k miles for $60k; with room to probably haggle them down if necessary.

 

[kpanda17]

The proof is in the pudding in terms of how badly Mercedes whiffed on their EQS line for appeal into its target market. Because people in the broad EV market of buyers don't want these things haha.

But that means for those that do like the EQS, they are massive bargains. The EQS is super roomy, ultra smooth, tech-feature-rich, and has the full boat of amenities you would normally want in a real luxury car. Quality materials, no squeaks/rattles, and of course the panels all line up. If you're looking for a commuter EV, this thing can't be beat since you won't care about the charging network for commutes.

I get it, there are a ton of faults with the car, and obviously it looks like butt. Luckily the inside is what counts haha; and the inside is awesome.

With low demand (either awareness or conversion to sale), the MB dealers are struggling to give the things away. And the wholesale + retail-used car prices have catered on EQS sedans and SUVs. I'm leasing a well optioned EQS sedan for $660 a month (with California taxes and title/doc fees!). Or, you can buy this 2022 model year with 13k miles for $60k; with room to probably haggle them down if necessary.
View attachment 979651

How are you leasing over $105K vehicle for $600 a month?

 

[holeydonut]

How are you leasing over $105K vehicle for $600 a month?
View attachment 979671

I'm actually leasing a $120k MSRP vehicle for $660 a month. The one in my avatar is some random photo off the internet. The one I'm leasing is a grey matte finish magno 4matic EQS 450 sedan. I posted about it here:

I feel like competing automakers want to push business to Tesla

Mercedes had a glut of inventory on EQS earlier this year. The dealers were incentivized to dump up to 20% off MSRP on the hood... and separately on the lease side MBFS was putting another $12k of incentives (including the $7.5 credit from the government and fleet incentives). And, MBFS was also propping up the residuals to the extent the capitalized cost of the lease was basically zero. Had to capitalize some of the doc/government fees just to avoid negative depreciation on the lease structure. The lease is one giant rent charge. The deals have worsened a bit since I got mine, but not by much.

Most people would rather pay $1,400 a month for a Tesla Model S instead of $660 a month for an EQS Sedan because they think Tesla has a great charging network, FSD tech, and Plaid. Many folks aren't considering the EQS when shopping for a large 5-passenger sedan EV. So, the EQS has to be priced to the level that it's poaching sales from cars way below its planned price class. This means massive bargains if you do get a Mercedes BEV.

 

[oldsport]

leasing a nontesla is a great way to try different ev out...

 

[Unobtanium]

The proof is in the pudding in terms of how badly Mercedes whiffed on their EQS line for appeal into its target market. Because people in the broad EV market of buyers don't want these things haha.

But that means for those that do like the EQS, they are massive bargains. The EQS is super roomy, ultra smooth, tech-feature-rich, and has the full boat of amenities you would normally want in a real luxury car. Quality materials, no squeaks/rattles, and of course the panels all line up. If you're looking for a commuter EV, this thing can't be beat since you won't care about the charging network for commutes.

I get it, there are a ton of faults with the car, and obviously it looks like butt. Luckily the inside is what counts haha; and the inside is awesome.

With low demand (either awareness or conversion to sale), the MB dealers are struggling to give the things away. And the wholesale + retail-used car prices have catered on EQS sedans and SUVs. I'm leasing a well optioned EQS sedan for $660 a month (with California taxes and title/doc fees!). Or, you can buy this 2022 model year with 13k miles for $60k; with room to probably haggle them down if necessary.
View attachment 979651

A friend of mine has always owned AMG, S, G Wagon, etc and knows the dealer in his area quite well (large metro area in Texas). He stopped by the MB dealer and looked at the EQS. This was back late 2022. They told him nkt to buy it as every one they had sold, was returned for gremlins of varying nature that they couldn't solve.

So...

That points to dealer issue, or teething issues, but either way they lost at least him as a customer on EV, and I bet many others. There is no way this guy would buy something like a Tesla. He wants to walk into a dealership, or call up his rep, and have the car delivered etc and the experience be flawless. I think for customers like him, MB needs to (or already has?) Improve. They indeed missed the old money big time so far from what Im hearing.

OP, thats awesome your experience has been so good. My opinion is that most EV makers underrate their cars range. Kindof like horsepower in the 90s.

 

[jjrandorin]

I'm actually leasing a $120k MSRP vehicle for $660 a month.

Not that @holeydonut needs any corroborating, but I will anyway. He and I were chatting in PMs about something else a while back, and he mentioned these numbers to me. I used to help people evaluate lease deals on a BMW board before my Tesla ownership, so am comfortable with leasing numbers.

Everyone may not be able to get the exact deal that @holeydonut got (hes selling himself short a bit regarding his deal skills) but I will vouch for this being a deal he has, so the conversation does not need to be about "how is this possible".

 

[holeydonut]

A friend of mine has always owned AMG, S, G Wagon, etc and knows the dealer in his area quite well (large metro area in Texas). He stopped by the MB dealer and looked at the EQS. This was back late 2022. They told him nkt to buy it as every one they had sold, was returned for gremlins of varying nature that they couldn't solve.

So...

That points to dealer issue, or teething issues, but either way they lost at least him as a customer on EV, and I bet many others. There is no way this guy would buy something like a Tesla. He wants to walk into a dealership, or call up his rep, and have the car delivered etc and the experience be flawless. I think for customers like him, MB needs to (or already has?) Improve. They indeed missed the old money big time so far from what Im hearing.

OP, thats awesome your experience has been so good. My opinion is that most EV makers underrate their cars range. Kindof like horsepower in the 90s.

Lol yeah Mercedes has such better service in my brief experience so far. They haven't disappointed yet.

So we picked up a GLS @ MSRP (plus stupid ceramic bullcrap) ) and they gave us the most awesome white glove service (like it's not worth MSRP but whatever). Bow on the hood, silly stupid pomp, and the sales guy walked my wife through the GLS features, set up her phone, and let her practice a hands-free parking blah blah. We even got a GLS loaner when our GLS had to go in for service.

I got that EQS for some mega-discount. After I signed paperwork they literally just tossed me a pair of keys and told me to get outta there cuz they were too busy to prep the car hahaha.

But even Mercedes' super apathetic DGAF delivery on the EQS was still better than what Tesla Sunnyvale could muster for a 23 Ultra Red X. The "brand new" Model X had trash inside, was covered in dirt and grease, and was all manner of effed up. Total cluster.

I know what you mean about people with money. They pay a premium for nice things and to be treated nicer than your average plebe. Mercedes is capable of treating people nice or plebian lol. Seems like they're having a hard time distinguishing who to treat really well in Texas.

Edit: by the way here's a recent transaction history for EQS 580 (the one with the Hyperscreen and beefier motors) Sedan. They're barely clearing $70k at auction. If you all really want to check out a MB EV, leasing is the ONLY way to go. If you buy the car, the depreciation curve is even worse than a Maserati or Bentley. It'll destroy any reasonable financial reason to buy the car vs lease.

 

[Unobtanium]

Lol yeah Mercedes has such better service in my brief experience so far. They haven't disappointed yet.

So we picked up a GLS @ MSRP (plus stupid ceramic bullcrap) ) and they gave us the most awesome white glove service (like it's not worth MSRP but whatever). Bow on the hood, silly stupid pomp, and the sales guy walked my wife through the GLS features, set up her phone, and let her practice a hands-free parking blah blah. We even got a GLS loaner when our GLS had to go in for service.

I got that EQS for some mega-discount. After I signed paperwork they literally just tossed me a pair of keys and told me to get outta there cuz they were too busy to prep the car hahaha.

But even Mercedes' super apathetic DGAF delivery on the EQS was still better than what Tesla Sunnyvale could muster for a 23 Ultra Red X. The "brand new" Model X had trash inside, was covered in dirt and grease, and was all manner of effed up. Total cluster.

I know what you mean about people with money. They pay a premium for nice things and to be treated nicer than your average plebe. Mercedes is capable of treating people nice or plebian lol. Seems like they're having a hard time distinguishing who to treat really well in Texas.

Edit: by the way here's a recent transaction history for EQS 580 (the one with the Hyperscreen and beefier motors) Sedan. They're barely clearing $70k at auction. If you all really want to check out a MB EV, leasing is the ONLY way to go. If you buy the car, the depreciation curve is even worse than a Maserati or Bentley. It'll destroy any reasonable financial reason to buy the car vs lease.

View attachment 979720

What's owning it like? Is it similar some magic way with $599/799 A B service, or is it like a real EV in that its truly peanuts to own?

 

[holeydonut]

What's owning it like? Is it similar some magic way with $599/799 A B service, or is it like a real EV in that its truly peanuts to own?

In my experience, using Mercedes EQS sedan is functionally superior to the Model 3 it replaced. The Mercedes is better in almost every way. Soup to nuts the vast majority of the driving experience is better for less money.


EQS Pros:

Let's start with how you get into the car. Having a real Mercedes key fob instead of some misfiring Bluetooth key means I get in the EQS successfully the first time every time. Contrast that with the Model 3 where half the time I was taking out my iPhone 13 Pro Max and shaking it angrily at the Model 3 hoping it’d unlock. Having Tesla tell me to get a new iPhone to fix the Bluetooth key was a form of gaslighting that shouldn't be hoisted on anybody. Edit: yes, I kept the Tesla key card in my wallet. But I'll take a nice key fob over taking out my wallet and pulling out a credit card to swipe by the B-pillar.

Once in the car, the the Mercedes has real luxury. Massaging seats, ambient customizations, a big glass roof that actually has a shade, and a steering wheel that you will actually enjoy using. It has BUTTONS for the frequent user interactions. It has a display behind the steering wheel. Oooooo.

The Apple Carplay syncs up and everything with media/nav is what I want. I don't have to worry about getting in the car one day after some update and wondering WTF happened to the UI. And no more navigating menus to turn on/off windshield wipers. One ultra lame thing I experienced with Tesla was Slacker deleted some songs that had been be on my premium subscription Tesla Music stations.

Once driving the car at normal speeds, the EQS just wins in every single facet I want. Way more roomy inside, way quieter at speed, ZERO rattles (Teslas rattle so goddamn much), no creaks over bumps, adaptive air suspension that is firm without being too stiff, 4 wheel steering for super tight turning radius. If you toggle the left-paddle to put the car in "strong recuperation" (and disable auto-forward-creep) then EQS can one-pedal drive like a Tesla but with the added benefit it coasts to a stop much smoother. Oh and the auto pilot doesn't phantom brake all the time.

When it's time to park... EQS has parking cameras and parking sensors. I repeat... Mercedes has the innovation known as "parking sensors." 2023 Model X was such a PITA to park since the "vision" is blind/not-working and zero sensors. Even the Model 3 with USS was kind of janky compared to the cameras on the EQS.

Since I'm only doing local Bay Area round-trippers, I don't expect to ever use a DC Fast Charger. But yeah, if you're dependent on a great charging network, then EQS isn't for you at this time. I got a pair of NACS to J1772 adaptors so the two Tesla wall connectors at home can charge the Mercedes EQS or BMW i4 without a hitch. The charge on Solar with Tesla Powerwall integration seems cool if you have a Tesla BEV, but kind of unnecessary in California since any BEV charging from 10am to 3pm is going to mostly come from solar sources anyway.

Edit: Regarding Service, Mercedes is 10000x better than Tesla. Tesla service is bottom-of-the-barrel garbage... I don't know how you all get good service, but my experience (on delivery, at a service center, at home with mobile techs, blah) has been absolute TRASH on both the Model 3 and Model X.

Regarding cost to own, the EQS is cheaper than the 2021 Performance Model 3. Since we have solar on the roof, I don't really care about the kWh per mile efficiencies and overall energy costs. Also, I can't speak to how it compares with a 2023 Model 3 since stuff with the $7,500 tax incentive get messy. To my situation, leasing a Mercedes EQS or EQE sedan is cheaper than buying a new Tesla Model 3. Heck, the insurance on the EQS is even less than the Performance Model 3.


EQS Cons:

- ugly (although I think it looks pretty good with the grey magno paint)
- slower than Performance Model 3
- forementioned CCS charging and lack of compatibility with Tesla's network
- voice activated commands are somehow worse with Mercedes MBUX compared to Tesla.
- Edit: Tesla with optional Homelink will auto-close the garage door instead of you having to push a button
- Edit: Model 3 has a frunk, but a smaller rear trunk than the hatch-coupe-back of the EQS ... so it kind of nets out?
- Edit: Model 3 has a power-opening charge port cover while Mercedes (at least in 2022 and 2023 model year) needs you to push the plug cover door

 

[DanDi58]

In my experience, using Mercedes EQS sedan is functionally superior to the Model 3 it replaced. The Mercedes is better in almost every way. Soup to nuts the vast majority of the driving experience is better for less money.

Comparing an entry-level Tesla with a top-of-the-line Mercedes? Not surprised the Mercedes fares better. And the deal you got is immaterial to this argument, since not everyone can necessarily get that same deal.

 

[holeydonut]

Comparing an entry-level Tesla with a top-of-the-line Mercedes? Not surprised the Mercedes fares better. And the deal you got is immaterial to this argument, since not everyone can necessarily get that same deal.

I've been helping a lot of of people stuff into EQE and EQS lately (no I'm not a dealer, I'm just a DAMF). The deals are there, you just have to be willing to haggle instead of ordering inventory off of a .com.

I agree, EQS vs a Model 3 is probably not a fair comparison. But I believe EQE vs Model 3 is fair. And the only real difference between EQE and EQS is the wheelbase and the 4 wheel steering. You can even get EQE with magno paint. There are some mega deals going on EQE out here in California. I don't know what you all are paying for a Model 3, but you can get an decent EQE on lease for $700/month.

 

[holeydonut]

Quick follow up, here's the deal sheet for a very well loaded (Southern California) EQE 500 4Matic ($90k MSRP) lease @ 3 years 7,500 per annum miles. WITH doc fees, taxes, and MSDs is $680 per month and $2k down. So that's $735 effective per month. If you just pick a lower end trim, you'll easily be sub $700 without MSD.

I know these cars aren't for everyone (especially with the possible challenges charging on the road and leases being capped on miles). But the interior of an EQE is almost functionally the same as an EQS... it is an amazing EV to operate.

If you're a high mileage driver, unfortunately I don't think Mercedes EQ is a good purchase due to the lack of the $7,500 EV incentive on German-imported vehicles. You could always lease then buy out the vehicle... but the extraordinary bad depreciation at this time is still a big deterrent to ultimately owning these EVs.

 

[DanDi58]

I was actually driving behind an EQE last week and noticed the round Mercedes badge would open and close depending on car speed. Opened when car was slowing to a stop, and closed when it moved away. Is that a camera?

 

[holeydonut]

I was actually driving behind an EQE last week and noticed the round Mercedes badge would open and close depending on car speed. Opened when car was slowing to a stop, and closed when it moved away. Is that a camera?

Yeah, the emblem on the back of an EQS or EQE is a combination of a camera shutter and a button to activate the auto open for the rear hatch.

But, there is no automatic rear opening when the car is slowing to a stop. The driver has to manually tap into the camera views then select the rear camera for it to open that flap and display the driver the camera view while moving forward. I think the car has to be going less than 12 mph.

Of course if the car goes in reverse, that flap opens up. And last, this is probably something that is going to break rather early during vehicle ownership and will be infuriating to the driver lol.

 

[DanDi58]

Yeah, the emblem on the back of an EQS or EQE is a combination of a camera shutter and a button to activate the auto open for the rear hatch.

But, there is no automatic rear opening when the car is slowing to a stop. The driver has to manually tap into the camera views then select the rear camera for it to open that flap and display the driver the camera view while moving forward. I think the car has to be going less than 12 mph.

Of course if the car goes in reverse, that flap opens up. And last, this is probably something that is going to break rather early during vehicle ownership and will be infuriating to the driver lol.

It's not automatic? I was following the car on a section of road between several stop,lights, so that would mean that the driver was opening and closing the camera flap several times in a 1-mile stretch? That seems strange.

 

[holeydonut]

It's not automatic? I was following the car on a section of road between several stop,lights, so that would mean that the driver was opening and closing the camera flap several times in a 1-mile stretch? That seems strange.

I think what you're describing is a glitch with the car then. It probably thinks every time they were pulling to a stop, that they were pulling into a parking space. The EQS/EQE detect when it thinks the driver is trying to park in a lot, and automatically does a 360 camera view to assist. Or, if you set your home address it'll activate that 360 camera automatically as you approach your home.

But in this case it seems the car is just doing the camera thing any time it slowed down which is another reason technology is better leased than bought haha.

Also, in response to @kpanda17 's post above. Check out this 1 year old AMG EQS with like 8k miles on the clock. It's listing used for $90k here in NorCal (Elk Grove near Sacramento). And this thing's MSRP is around $150k. The bargains for these Mercedes EQ EVs are amazing ON LEASES. You'd be insane to actually buy a new EQS, since you'll be eating worse depreciation than Bentley or Maserati.