Another Model X crash, driver says autopilot was engaged

[mrdoubleb]

This video is making the rounds on the internet and it seems to show how the X could have found itself in a rollover after hitting the concrete barrier/divider. This a VW Jetta that played the "whose xxxx is bigger?" game with a few bikers and got into this:

 

[X Yes?]

- a very high portion of people who are naysayers, have never even remotely used this feature. Forget using it. They don't own it or not even tried it.

But they are at risk because they are on the road with other cars that have systems that don't work reliably or have distracted drivers.

 

[KaiserSoze]

That will be an issue when AP can take you from the street in front of your house and into the work parking lot. We aren't there yet. Drivers still get plenty of manual time behind the wheel.

Hopefully true. I'm more concerned, near term, about any reduced reaction time or skill when the autopilot disengages or must be manually disengaged. I wonder if the mind must still "wake up" and reorient/reengage even the driver/pilot is already paying as much attention as they think they can. Surely some part of the brain relaxes, because everyone, myself included, finds Autopilot relaxing, and the feature is billed as a "reliever."

 

[KZKZ]

But they are at risk because they are on the road with other cars that have systems that don't work reliably or have distracted drivers.

I think that's a very valid point.

Some examples of other drivers being impacted negatively,

In this accident, the Tesla driver thought the car would stop in time, but when the AutoPilot looked like it wouldn't stop, the driver hit the brakes which turned the AP off. Unfortunately, the Auto Emergency Braking also turned off and the Tesla plowed into the back of another car. Tesla said the system worked as designed. To me, this seems like the logical case for AEB to activate.

Another driver says Tesla’s autopilot failed to brake; Tesla says otherwise


And of course this accident speaks for itself.

And regarding the distracted Tesla driver situation, YouTube is overflowing with them.

 

[SR22pilot]

Hopefully true. I'm more concerned, near term, about any reduced reaction time or skill when the autopilot disengages or must be manually disengaged. I wonder if the mind must still "wake up" and reorient/reengage even the driver/pilot is already paying as much attention as they think they can. Surely some part of the brain relaxes, because everyone, myself included, finds Autopilot relaxing, and the feature is billed as a "reliever."

Is this any different that other cars with active cruise control?

 

[X Yes?]

Is this any different that other cars with active cruise control?

Maybe not.

The EU has certainly perked up after this latest accident: German authority would not have approved beta-phase Tesla autopilot

 

[GoTslaGo]

Hopefully true. I'm more concerned, near term, about any reduced reaction time or skill when the autopilot disengages or must be manually disengaged. I wonder if the mind must still "wake up" and reorient/reengage even the driver/pilot is already paying as much attention as they think they can. Surely some part of the brain relaxes, because everyone, myself included, finds Autopilot relaxing, and the feature is billed as a "reliever."

When I use AP, I find it more physically relaxing. My body is less tense, and as a consequence I find I can pay more attention to the road and the traffic around me. Mentally it is more relaxing because I can focus on the traffic patterns and less on the physical aspects of driving, and can now see better when some crazy driver is around me.

 

[KZKZ]

Hopefully true. I'm more concerned, near term, about any reduced reaction time or skill when the autopilot disengages or must be manually disengaged. I wonder if the mind must still "wake up" and reorient/reengage even the driver/pilot is already paying as much attention as they think they can. Surely some part of the brain relaxes, because everyone, myself included, finds Autopilot relaxing, and the feature is billed as a "reliever."

I think that's spot on. That's the main argument between Level 3 vs Level 4 automation. Google came to the conclusion that Level 3 is not a safe condition for the reasons you mentioned. Volvo came to the same conclusion and will only release Level 2 or 4.

As currently implemented, AP only has Level 2 hardware yet the system can act as a Level 3. The AP software settings can allow the driver to become disengaged or distracted, as we've seen.

As soon as you turn over the steering to an "AutoPilot" (which has a capability marketed as "Autosteer") the driver can easily get complacent or distracted unless proper safeguards are in place, such as a short duration nanny warning if you aren't touching the wheel. There are plenty of videos out there showing those kind of safeguards aren't currently in place on the AP.

 

[SR22pilot]

But they are at risk because they are on the road with other cars that have systems that don't work reliably or have distracted drivers.

Do you question driver assist features on all cars or just Tesla? I'm curios since I get the impression you don't have much experience with Tesla. Feel free to correct that if i am wrong. Are you a concerned owner? Do you have a reservation on the 3? Are you a big fan of Tesla? Just curious.

 

[ecarfan]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the surprising (but well researched) phenomenon whereby the use of autopilots in aircraft have rendered some pilots incapable of responding correctly to unusual flight situations, with disasterous results (see Air France Flight 447 et al). [1] [2]
For this reason, I expect more serious Autopilot accidents as drivers begin to become (involuntarily) complacent, even while the rate of less serious accidents decreases. It appears to be human nature, even for professional, exquisitely well trained pilots.

And yet, isn't air travel safer than ever, in part because of sophisticated in-flight autopilot systems?

 

[GoTslaGo]

Maybe not.

The EU has certainly perked up after this latest accident: German authority would not have approved beta-phase Tesla autopilot

Yeah, German authorities are not biased.

MB, Audi dethroned from top driver assist. MB/BMW/Audi numbers hurting from Tesla. VW under fire for diesel-gate (note that EU/Germany will not compensate VW diesel drivers for their problems as opposed to how FTC is making them do so in US).

 

[msnow]

Hopefully true. I'm more concerned, near term, about any reduced reaction time or skill when the autopilot disengages or must be manually disengaged. I wonder if the mind must still "wake up" and reorient/reengage even the driver/pilot is already paying as much attention as they think they can. Surely some part of the brain relaxes, because everyone, myself included, finds Autopilot relaxing, and the feature is billed as a "reliever."

Not everyone finds AP relaxing.

 

[SR22pilot]

I think that's a very valid point.

Some examples of other drivers being impacted negatively,

In this accident, the Tesla driver thought the car would stop in time, but when the AutoPilot looked like it wouldn't stop, the driver hit the brakes which turned the AP off. Unfortunately, the Auto Emergency Braking also turned off and the Tesla plowed into the back of another car. Tesla said the system worked as designed. To me, this seems like the logical case for AEB to activate.

Another driver says Tesla’s autopilot failed to brake; Tesla says otherwise


And of course this accident speaks for itself.

And regarding the distracted Tesla driver situation, YouTube is overflowing with them.

This is an example of what most advanced cruise control systems won't handle. That's why Mercedes and Tesla both call out this scenario in their manuals.

 

[SR22pilot]

Not everyone finds AP relaxing.

I am not surprised at this. I am curious how much you have used it since I have had somewhat the same experience. Then again, I don't really trust active cruise control on cars either. I like it. I just get almost hyper vigilant when approaching other cars.

 

[msnow]

I am not surprised at this. I am curious how much you have used it since I have had somewhat the same experience. Then again, I don't really trust active cruise control on cars either. I like it. I just get almost hyper vigilant when approaching other cars.

I've used it since it first came out 10/15/15 v7.0. I turn it on for most freeway driving but as soon as it starts drifting or having a hard time reading lines I turn it off. I find it more relaxing to just drive and enjoy the car rather than monitoring the AP system and its quirks.

 

[CliffG]

Maybe not.

The EU has certainly perked up after this latest accident: German authority would not have approved beta-phase Tesla autopilot

Curious how this story gets reprinted but not the one where Germany denies investigating Tesla over software updates

 

[KaiserSoze]

And yet, isn't air travel safer than ever, in part because of sophisticated in-flight autopilot systems?

I don't know why airline travel is so safe. If I may speculate, air travel is safe because of aggressive regulation, which mandates extreme maintenance levels, lots of pilot (re)training, checklists, pilot freshness requirements, the ability to land in poor visibility (via instruments only), and strong accident analysis. And, yes, finally, technology has been able to remove some sources of human error.

And yet, the crash of Air France 447, which killed 228 passengers, was caused by a pilot's poor reaction to the unexpected disengagement of the autopilot. Similarly, Asiana Airlines Flight 214. In response the FAA has recommended pilots spend (slightly) less time using autopilot.

I think that until planes, or cars, can operate completely autonomously, automation will reduce the most common accidents yet make the worst accidents worse, by reducing the skill level of humans to respond to failures in automation.

As an example, look at Tesla's fatality rate. As best I can tell, it's one death per two billion miles driven without Autopilot (this excludes suicides and car chases) and one per 130 million miles with it enabled. It's 15x better without Autopilot.

In my own experience, I find that AP reduces my awareness of whether my blind spots are clear. I just can't help it.

None of this should detract from Tesla's achievements. I use AP all the time, especially when I need to use the touchscreen, which is patently unsafe to do otherwise. And eventually it will prevent more fatalities than human driving. Onwards!

 

[X Yes?]

Do you question driver assist features on all cars or just Tesla? I'm curios since I get the impression you don't have much experience with Tesla. Feel free to correct that if i am wrong. Are you a concerned owner? Do you have a reservation on the 3? Are you a big fan of Tesla? Just curious.

Your not paying attention. I gave you a "like" when you said insinuated all systems should be scrutinized.

 

[X Yes?]

Curious how this story gets reprinted but not the one where Germany denies investigating Tesla over software updates

The former one quoted is the most recent. from today.

 

[X Yes?]

Yeah, German authorities are not biased.

MB, Audi dethroned from top driver assist. MB/BMW/Audi numbers hurting from Tesla. VW under fire for diesel-gate (note that EU/Germany will not compensate VW diesel drivers for their problems as opposed to how FTC is making them do so in US).

Can't say I disagree, The Germans are likely biased towards their homegrown manufacturers just as German drivers will favor Audi, VW, Mercedes, BMW EV's.