Another Price Increase? 11/11

[zpaul]

Stealerships. Back room sales tactics.


Cannot think of another type of business which has such a bad reputation that people have coined a term for how good they are at ripping off their customers.

Completely agree.
Put $100 deposit (now $250) on my convenience submitted paperwork and spent 20 minutes picking up MY.

Toyota dealer process - came, they had car I wanted, Sales guy was awesome, no BS and we agreed on trade ($2k more than Carvana and also taxes I do not have to pay on the trade) and new car price $750 off MSRP (never thought I would be paying MSRP).
AND then horsesh@t started. Took only 4 hours to fill our the paperwork and refuse numerous add ons that were about another $10k to the car, but only $100-170 a month. Finance guy was pretty sour since I wanted none of it. They charged me $500 dealer processing fee, tire recycle fee, electronic registration fee, and another $732 of optional equipment that were already installed, that I could replicate for $400 through Amazon.
Best part next day I was back in that office signing some additional stuff that they f-ed up in the evening.

I just can't wait for Carvana to start selling New cars and dropping it at my front door.
Just really tired of this hard sell tactics that kill half a day or more.

Tesla buying was unbelievable experience!

 

[Double-O]

I've noticed that most tesla owners are like apple product owners. Fanboys and brand loyal.

This was my first experience buying a car this way. Did it online/app, tesla insurance (by far the cheapest price of probably 10 or so companies I tried) same 2.49 financing for 4,5 or 6 year and you pick and choose whatever options you want on the car. Definitely the easiest buying experience in my 26 years of driving. I've always leased cars and know pretty well the ins and outs of a lease deal and have rented out my cars on Turo in the past to practically help pay for itself but the model Y, i had to buy. I was one of those who actually liked the negotiations part of stealerships, maybe because I'm a former successful salesman or maybe I just enjoyed playing dumb in the leasing process just to see what kinda BS they were gonna spew my way before I dropped knowledge on em and just looked at their reaction when speaking some lease terminology. Someone is always getting sold in any transaction. I just tried to do my best to let my sales experience do the selling.
Anyway, Model Y is a great car, great no haggle buying experience and so far, no problems. Couple days later, my car was dropped off in my driveway ready to drive. Can't really complain.

 

[sleepydoc]

I've noticed that most tesla owners are like apple product owners. Fanboys and brand loyal.

Yeah - there's a lot of brand loyalty in both cases. There is a difference between being a fan and being a Fanboy, though. I'm generally a fan of both Apple products and Teslas, but neither is perfect and no one should get a free pass.

 

[leaftoy]

I think with the transition to the current reality of pretty much everyone charging MSRP, a lot of people went "well hell, if I'm gonna pay sticker, might as well buy a Tesla then!". I bet there were a non-insignificant number of people that just couldn't stomache buying a car for MSRP, but when MSRP became the rule versus the exception, people started taking a hard look at Teslas.

Bingo!

Actually it is more than that. "I heard lot of dealers are charging X k over MSRP on in demand vehicles. At least with Tesla I and everyone else who orders around the same time pays exactly the same and I don't have to deal with any of the typical dealer games. Let me order a Tesla then".

 

[Ogre]

I heard Tesla was going to switch to using their auto bidder software to update the price on Teslas every 15 minutes based on a number of variables.

Inputs include:

* Current wait list length
* Current Tesla share price
* When Elon is next selling shares
* Status of EV incentives (this metric is done on a per-state basis).
* Area code of buyer.

 

[ThomasD]

Does Tesla raise the price of it's vehicles to match a tax rebate

 

[WhiteWi]

There is no tax credit. So as of now no.

 

[Ogre]

Does Tesla raise the price of it's vehicles to match a tax rebate

There isn’t enough data to answer this question.

It seems very much like set prices based on what the market will bear. If the EV incentives push demand up enough then I suspect price increases will continue. If demand slacks off then perhaps we’ll get a reprieve.

 

[Kairide]

No one is up selling you any of that. Tesla insurance is cheaper and 2.49 ain’t that bad either.

Those are some pretty generalized statements.

 

[sleepydoc]

No one is up selling you any of that. Tesla insurance is cheaper and 2.49 ain’t that bad either.

well, technically, Tesla is upselling those products but there's a huge difference between offering something and requiring it as a condition of purchase. All you have to do is click 'no' and you're done. Tesla also offers things like all weather floor mats, wheel locks, etc but they don't bundle them in as 'dealer installed accessories' that you're required to buy. Compare that to traditional dealers...

 

[edmonton2001]

Yikes! I was thinking of changing my color on my order just last night, but I guess I'll live with what I reserved now.

yep. i want the new silver option but they wont let me change it without paying the new price. white it is!

 

[CapeOne]

Well, the Ford dealers are all slapping an additional $10k+ 'dealer fee' on the Mach E's. At least Tesla is being up front about it (and honoring preexisting purchase contracts.)

This is not unique to Tesla - We recently bought a used Subaru Forester. Out of curiosity, I looked and there were exactly 0 new Foresters available within 250 miles of Minneapolis. There were fairly few used ones as well. The car we bought was a year old with 12k miles on it and we bought it for just under what it cost new. I don't think we got ripped off, that's just what the market is right now. (coincidentally, when we were test driving it, a story came on the radio about chip shortages affecting new car availability and how that was driving up the price of used cars!)

$10k dealer markup is really no different than Tesla raising the prices $10k during the year. Other manufacturers honor purchase prices and a $10k markup from a dealer is not the same thing as that is for an unsold car.

If we want to talk about NOT honoring prices, however, we can talk about Tesla. Tesla didn't honor prices for many people that placed orders for MS and MX models at the end of last year and into 2021. Even though production of the pre-refresh 2021 MS and MX ended at the end of 2020. Tesla was still promoting the lower priced vehicles and taking orders right up until the new refresh models were announced. Tesla DIDN'T honor the $69,420 MS base price, for example, for many who had ordered during that timeframe and instead gave them a $2k discount on the new MS which then had a $10k higher base price of $79,990. Tesla should NEVER have continued to promote and take orders for the lower prices cars on if they weren't going to honor the price.

 

[CapeOne]

GM tried to fix the dealer negotiation experience back in the 90s with Saturn. I learned to drive on an early 90s Saturn, it seemed like a decent economy car for its day. Kind of a shame GM didn't keep investing in Saturn. By the time they retired the brand, it was already dead, but it was really GM's fault for not investing in the lineup. They had a strong start and seemed popular for a while, at least where I lived. Then they kept making the cars uglier and uglier while falling further and further behind the competition.

The Saturn company was doomed to fail from the beginning. The company was never able to achieve the volume necessary for sufficient profitability (at its lower end price points) while also keeping systems in place that discouraged competition/price negotiating e.g., unique products, exclusive dealerships and wider territories, etc. Also, because trade in values were still negotiable there were ways around the so-called "no haggle" policy anyway e.g., instead of negotiating the retail price down, you negotiate the trade in value up. The net result is the same.

Besides, Tesla has historically discounted new inventory cars (in addition to raising or lowering sticker prices) and not necessarily the same across the board.

 

[sleepydoc]

$10k dealer markup is really no different than Tesla raising the prices $10k during the year. Other manufacturers honor purchase prices and a $10k markup from a dealer is not the same thing as that is for an unsold car.

If we want to talk about NOT honoring prices, however, we can talk about Tesla. Tesla didn't honor prices for many people that placed orders for MS and MX models at the end of last year and into 2021. Even though production of the pre-refresh 2021 MS and MX ended at the end of 2020. Tesla was still promoting the lower priced vehicles and taking orders right up until the new refresh models were announced. Tesla DIDN'T honor the $69,420 MS base price, for example, for many who had ordered during that timeframe and instead gave them a $2k discount on the new MS which then had a $10k higher base price of $79,990. Tesla should NEVER have continued to promote and take orders for the lower prices cars on if they weren't going to honor the price.

see my post above - there is a big difference. Dealer markups arbitrary and applied at the time of purchase, regardless of the price at the time the order was placed. I had not heard about Tesla not honoring the price for Model S orders; they should have, IMO. They have been honoring the prices for MY orders. The people who ordered a MY 6 months ago are paying that price, not the price at the time of delivery.

 

[CapeOne]

see my post above - there is a big difference. Dealer markups arbitrary and applied at the time of purchase, regardless of the price at the time the order was placed. I had not heard about Tesla not honoring the price for Model S orders; they should have, IMO. They have been honoring the prices for MY orders. The people who ordered a MY 6 months ago are paying that price, not the price at the time of delivery.

The same thing happens for an ordered car from a non-Tesla dealer. They will honor the ordered price. The $10k markup scenarios are cars for dealer inventory that don't have a buyer yet,

What Tesla did in the MS and MX example I gave was to continue to promote and take orders for cars at the lower price well after production of those models had ended. Instead of honoring the customer ordered cars at the ordered prices, they offered a $2k discount which would be fine except that the cars now carried a notably higher base price e.g., $79,990 versus $69,420 for the MS.

Another thing that Tesla has been doing is offering "faster delivery" cars in new existing inventory at the HIGHER prices while forcing some customers that had ordered cars at the lower prices to wait longer for their delivery. In these cases, they are prioritizing sales with higher prices/profits instead of fulfilling orders by when they were placed.

 

[voxel]

The same thing happens for an ordered car from a non-Tesla dealer. They will honor the ordered price. The $10k markup scenarios are cars for dealer inventory that don't have a buyer yet,

This mostly true but I follow ID.4 and Mach-E forums and there are stories of last minute MSRP adjustments.

In fact, ID.4 orders do not have any sort of price agreement in place. VW Dealer can add ADM but often they do not. However VW dealers will tack on junk that you will be forced to buy. While I bought my ID.4 and Mach-E at MSRP... both dealers forced add-ons. VW forced me to buy tint, nitro, mats - an extra $1K. I also had to pay their $800(?) dealer fee, prep fee, and doc fee. Suddenly, what was supposed to be no markup is $2K in BS.

Ford dealers have been known to tack on $5K or $10K to ordered cars also but usually those are fought using social media and Ford involvement. ADM is allowed but has to agreed to at order time. There is an ADM line shown on the website at reservation. You think no dealer would have this but there is a decent percentage of Ford dealers that WILL demand ADM even on orders.

You correct that most markup is for "dealer inventory that don't have a buyer yet" (abandoned orders). $5K markup for Mach-E is pretty normal. $10K for GT trims. And these cars sell!

 

[sleepydoc]

The same thing happens for an ordered car from a non-Tesla dealer. They will honor the ordered price.

this is absolutely false. There are multiple verifiable stories of consumers ordering cars from the carmakers' websites only to have the dealer add whatever markup they feel appropriate once the car arrives. This is slimy but totally legal because the website order is not a binding purchase agreement.

Prior to the era of supply shortages the dealers would virtually always honor the price because it was MSRP, a price they rarely got for a new car. Of course, prior to this very few people ordered a car from the website anyway because they knew they could go to a dealer and find the car they wanted or at lease close to it and get a better deal, assuming the dealer didn't screw them on the financing or the trade in value or the paint protection package or 'dealer installed options' or dealer prep fee, etc.

Edit: Obviously, this depends on the dealer; some dealers may be honest and honor the web price, but that is exactly the problem - you are at the mercy of the dealer and we all know how honest car dealers are...

Another thing that Tesla has been doing is offering "faster delivery" cars in new existing inventory at the HIGHER prices while forcing some customers that had ordered cars at the lower prices to wait longer for their delivery. In these cases, they are prioritizing sales with higher prices/profits instead of fulfilling orders by when they were placed.

Well, right now there is no 'existing inventory,' so your claim is irrelevant. Besides that, it makes no sense. If you are ordering a car today, any car in in existing inventory is being sold at the same price as ordering on the website. In the hypothetical case that you ordered a car and a there was an identical car at a Tesla dealer, you have the option of waiting for your order or purchasing the car now from the dealer at the current price. I fail to see anything dishonest or underhanded with that as long as they are not prioritizing manufacturing cars to be sold at higher prices (I've seen no claims or evidence of this and if claim they are, please provide some actual evidence.)

 

[CapeOne]

This mostly true but I follow ID.4 and Mach-E forums and there are stories of last minute MSRP adjustments.

In fact, ID.4 orders do not have any sort of price agreement in place. VW Dealer can add ADM but often they do not. However VW dealers will tack on junk that you will be forced to buy. While I bought my ID.4 and Mach-E at MSRP... both dealers forced add-ons. VW forced me to buy tint, nitro, mats - an extra $1K. I also had to pay their $800(?) dealer fee, prep fee, and doc fee. Suddenly, what was supposed to be no markup is $2K in BS.

Ford dealers have been known to tack on $5K or $10K to ordered cars also but usually those are fought using social media and Ford involvement. ADM is allowed but has to agreed to at order time. There is an ADM line shown on the website at reservation. You think no dealer would have this but there is a decent percentage of Ford dealers that WILL demand ADM even on orders.

You correct that most markup is for "dealer inventory that don't have a buyer yet" (abandoned orders). $5K markup for Mach-E is pretty normal. $10K for GT trims. And these cars sell!

Once an order is placed at an agreed price, the dealer is bound to that contract. The dealer will sell at the contract price or a potentially lower price if, for example, rebates increase by delivery time.

However, if an order is placed without an agreed price (e.g., customer makes a no obligation order to see the car first before deciding whether to buy) then it's possible that a dealer could “adjust” the price up if the customer decides to buy the car from that particular dealer.

 

[voxel]

Once an order is placed at an agreed price, the dealer is bound to that contract. The dealer will sell at the contract price or a potentially lower price if, for example, rebates increase by delivery time.

However, if an order is placed without an agreed price (e.g., customer makes a no obligation order to see the car first before deciding whether to buy) then it's possible that a dealer could “adjust” the price up if the customer decides to buy the car from that particular dealer.

First of all there is no contract. Second the ordering system exists only for the dealers (not the consumer) because of US laws that prevent direct ordering from manufacturers. With Ford you place a reservation using the website but it is the dealer who submits the production order and from there on you can NOT change dealers on that order because that order doesn’t belong to you. Third… Ford has no direct control over dealers and can not force them to do anything due to US regulations. There are cars/orders where the dealer refused to back down from ADM even with Ford nudging them. Dealers are independent entities. This both a negative and positive.

It’s not as simple as you think. Americans love their bureaucracy and middle men. Dealerships are these middle men. Once they provided valuable distribution and repair services for ICE vehicles but are becoming hindrances for EV sales.

 

[CapeOne]

this is absolutely false. There are multiple verifiable stories of consumers ordering cars from the carmakers' websites only to have the dealer add whatever markup they feel appropriate once the car arrives. This is slimy but totally legal because the website order is not a binding purchase agreement.

Prior to the era of supply shortages the dealers would virtually always honor the price because it was MSRP, a price they rarely got for a new car. Of course, prior to this very few people ordered a car from the website anyway because they knew they could go to a dealer and find the car they wanted or at lease close to it and get a better deal, assuming the dealer didn't screw them on the financing or the trade in value or the paint protection package or 'dealer installed options' or dealer prep fee, etc

Edit: Obviously, this depends on the dealer; some dealers may be honest and honor the web price, but that is exactly the problem - you are at the mercy of the dealer and we all know how honest car dealers are...

Once an order is placed at an agreed price, the dealer is bound to that contract. The dealer will sell at the contract price or a potentially lower price if, for example, rebates increase by delivery time.

However, if an order is placed without an agreed price (e.g., customer makes a no obligation order to see the car first before deciding whether to buy) then it's possible that a dealer could “adjust” the price up if the customer decides to buy the car from that particular dealer.

Well, right now there is no 'existing inventory,' so your claim is irrelevant. Besides that, it makes no sense. If you are ordering a car today, any car in in existing inventory is being sold at the same price as ordering on the website. In the hypothetical case that you ordered a car and a there was an identical car at a Tesla dealer, you have the option of waiting for your order or purchasing the car now from the dealer at the current price. I fail to see anything dishonest or underhanded with that as long as they are not prioritizing manufacturing cars to be sold at higher prices (I've seen no claims or evidence of this and if claim they are, please provide some actual evidence.)

Existing inventory cars come and go but just a month or so ago there were over 80 new M3 cars available in existing inventory. There have also been other models like the MS. Currently I am only seeing a few new existing inventory cars but not all inventory is posted online. As I stated, Tesla has been offering new existing inventory cars at the higher prices (and profits) before some people have been able to take delivery of their lower priced cars at their "local" Tesla store. Sometimes even if there is a match to an existing order, Tesla will have shipped to another location for quick delivery higher price, higher profit inventory. If the car is a distance away, it can require additional shipping cost if the customer wants to take delivery locally thereby making it less desirable or convenient to do so.

Anyway, you can read examples of customers commenting/complaining about this on Tesla forums like this. This has at least included M3 and MS models.