Another "Tesla killer" fading already?

[RichieM]

Because they didn't know how to sell that platform.

Not so, GM is downsizing and eliminating all but a few models to concentrate on the truck/suv market

 

[mswlogo]

Not so, GM is downsizing and eliminating all but a few models to concentrate on the truck/suv market

Because they didn't know how to sell anything but.

 

[GregD60]

ELectric America or something like that. Dieselgate stipulated they spend something absurd like ~$30,000,000,000 building a charge network so it's grown fast and will keep growing. They generally followed the supercharger network's path but IMHO they should fill in the gaps faster to gain some market in places Teslas are less common. Not my business though, they know better.

Actually, VW's settlement called for it to spend $2 billion for the charging network, which is more than just the charger installations themselves. By 2027, they're supposed to be done with the initial plan for 2,800 level 2 chargers at 650 community based sites and 2,000 DC fast chargers at 300 highway sites. Some unknown percentage of the DC fast chargers are supposed to be Chademo however with a max 50kw charging rate. Level 2 chargers are like a low powered version of Tesla's destination chargers, and will require quite a few hours for a significant charge.
Inside Electrify America’s plan to simplify electric car charging

Tesla already has 14,081 individual Supercharger stalls at 1,604 locations worldwide. Best guess is that somewhere between 33% and 40% of them are in the U.S. At 33%, that works out to 4,694 DC fast chargers at 535 sites. By 2027, I expect that the number of Tesla superchargers will be substantially higher, so Tesla will continue to enjoy a substantial edge. Also, if Tesla comes out with a CCS adapter for America, which would seem extremely likely since they've already done so for Europe, Teslas would be able to recharge at all the Electrify America locations as well. Again, this is a major competitive edge for Tesla.

Also, the Electrify America level 2 chargers are only supposed to be 7.2kw, which may be too slow to charge up something like an E-tron or Taycan overnight. The Tesla destination chargers are up to 19.2kw. As of the end of 2018, Tesla had 3,267 destination charger locations in the U.S., with typically multiple chargers per location. I don't know how many they've added this year, but I expect that it is substantial and plenty more will be added by 2027.

 

[RichieM]

Because they didn't know how to sell anything but.

As the above post stated demand for sedans has been dropping for years and the relatively small profit margins they were generating
GM simply followed where the profit margins led them

 

[GregD60]

ELectric America or something like that. Dieselgate stipulated they spend something absurd like ~$30,000,000,000 building a charge network so it's grown fast and will keep growing. They generally followed the supercharger network's path but IMHO they should fill in the gaps faster to gain some market in places Teslas are less common. Not my business though, they know better.

One more thought on Tesla Superchargers versus any other charging network out there. The Tesla Supercharger system is exceedingly easy to use, just set up your account once on Tesla.com and then plug into any Supercharger. Electrify America, at least at this point in time, is more like a regular gas station where you have to swipe your credit card before filling up. This isn't a big deal, but it's just another small edge for Tesla.

 

[Shock-On-T]

The Chevy Volt died because of DEALERS. They are clueless.

Here in Australia I went to a dealer to see a Holden Volt. The sales guy sniggered and said “why would you want one of those?”.
I said because I was bored to death with yet another piston engined car and was interested in new tech. He said “yeah but it’s gutless”.
Happy Model S owner...

 

[StealthP3D]

You are very lucky. I've had my car in at least four times and they still haven't fixed some issues reported on the first visit. Any chance you have model 3s? Do model 3s get the yellow border problem? I guess they don't get the drive shaft vibration issue either, eh?

Model 3 is a much newer car. They put everything they learned from the Roadster, the Model S and the Model X into it. I would expect the Raven Model S and X are pretty darn reliable by now! I expect the Model Y to be slightly improved over the Model 3.

I've owned 6 new cars but none have been as trouble-free as the two Model 3's (our first Teslas).

 

[CSFTN]

They're beautiful cars, but much smaller than I thought they would be. It's more like a Model 3 than a Model X - nothing wrong with that, but in the reviews they always compared it to an X.

Taycan is replacing my Tesla - it has more range and is faster than my Performance Model S, so I see it as a more comfortable direct competitor to my previous electric car. I don't understand the "made for Europe" concept - what does this mean?

First off, Taycan more range than a ModelS-P? I don't think the official announcement of range (EPA) has been announced. Predictions I have seen (on car not Tesla sites) make WAGs of ~ 220 miles based primarily upon the stories for the ETron vs the truth. There has never been a Model S Performance with range that low (when new). Second - faster? By that I hope you mean top speed, or a prolonged measurement like 0-130? Otherwise that statement is false.

I have a friend who recently took delivery of an e-tron, and he loves it. More power to him. I hope it succeeds. Competition is good for all. View attachment 463712

Third - please compare apples to apples. It is dishonest to compare the max range of one vehicle with the range when you start at 80% of another, especially when Tesla has NEVER instructed anyone that they cannot or should not charge beyond. They have, when asked, provide guidance to charging levels consistent with maximizing battery life. And 90% has always been the published number dividing daily driving from trips.

I too look forward to people posting about their Taycans. Taycan appears to be a legitimate effort at an electric Porsche, emphasizing performance over more utilitarian things like range. That's a good thing. I hope they succeed.

 

[StealthP3D]

My understanding is the model 3 has other issues like thin paint and various quality control problems from being rushed in manufacturing. There's no shortage of reports. Some of these problems won't be seen for some time until the corrosion starts showing up.

I was nervous about all those negative reports before we took delivery of our first Model 3. But it was perfect in every way. By the time I was ready to buy my Stealth P3D a few months later, I had figured out most of the noise was caused by (or amplified by) Tesla detractors who didn't want to see Tesla displace gas and oil and the cars that ran on petroleum products. A lot of the reports were simply made up or repeated endlessly. Even though I knew that it was hard not to be a little nervous picking up my P3D. But, as suspected, it was perfect too, just like my wife's LR RWD. No unsightly panel gaps, no paint drips, nothing but sleek new car. Absolutely beautiful without a single flaw. OK, there were still suction cup marks on the windshield from the assembly process. But those came right off with some aerosol glass cleaner.

I'm still blown away by how well both these cars drive and how easy they are to live with. No, scratch that, how enjoyable they are to own and use. It's been over a year for each and they are both better than the day we picked them up. Not only do they have a bunch of new features but my P3D became more powerful with a software update and quicker in the 1/4 mile. Top speed was raised too. My wifes LR RWD went from 310 miles maximum range to 325 miles. Yes, we can actually get that in real-world driving on a regular basis. In fact, her lifetime efficiency is down around 225 Wh/mile, better than advertised. And that's saying something because she can have a lead foot from time to time (when I met her 30 years ago she had a Cutlass 442 convertible with street cams, built transmission and differential and performance exhaust).

I drive my P3D hard on rural mountain roads that are salted, graveled and sometimes not even paved. Basically, I thrash it (within reason). It still drives and looks like new and has never needed a single thing other than tires/rotation. I know there is no shortage of "reports" but know that they are not representative of the actual reliability of this car.

 

[doghousePVD]

links? maps?

I counted Tesla SC vs. Electrify America CCS in New England. EA has 5, Tesla has over 40.

EA has 8 more "planned". Tesla has 10 more under construction, plus another 9 already permitted.

No matter what you're smoking, you can't say EA is even doing a half ass job compared to Tesla in New England. Tesla is still growing twice as fast as EA.

 

[doghousePVD]

How do you know this? I've seen reports that were provided by testing labs. I'm no paint expert, but after all the problems I've had with my car, I have no reason to doubt lab reports measuring thin, soft paint.

Then Consumer Reports dropped their recommendation...



While this is not Consumer Reports test data, these are reports from a number of Tesla model 3 owners, not some tiny number. Consumer Reports would not consider a handful of complaints to be statistically significant.


You have two cars you have had for a year. What makes you think your samples are representative of the lot? I will say that when I've taken my car into the shop, there are more S and Xs in than 3s. But that doesn't mean so much. 3s are barely a year old. The model S is some 8 or more years old and the X is at least 4 years old.

I have had problems with Consumer Reports "data" over many years with various products. They have their biases, and I no longer subscribe. They have long lost credibility with me.

I have no idea if the paint issues are real. My anecdote is after 9,000 miles of salt, sand, and New England winters, the paint looks great (except where my wife dinged it).

 

[mswlogo]

Model 3 is a much newer car. They put everything they learned from the Roadster, the Model S and the Model X into it. I would expect the Raven Model S and X are pretty darn reliable by now! I expect the Model Y to be slightly improved over the Model 3.

I've owned 6 new cars but none have been as trouble-free as the two Model 3's (our first Teslas).

Concerns about roof cracking, puddles ripping under belly off, rear bumper possibly falling off, frozen windows, frozen charge port, water dumping in trunk, poor storage with no hatch, stiff ride, loud ride. It finally hit me and I got rid of my Model 3 in favor of the Model X. I like it 10x better. I would have ideally preferred Model S but I wanted the towing capability of the X.

All new all right, all new inexperienced employees built them. And experienced bean counters stripped it to the bone.

 

[glgador007]

I have a 2017 MS 75D and was fortunate enough to be able to borrow an e-tron for a week this summer while my MS was in the shop for a body damage repair. It’s a beautiful car in and out, but not a true competitor to a Tesla for anyone that has a Tesla.
The range is 200miles, if you drive carefully - it was closer to 175 with my normal driving. That’s in a 95 KW battery. I get 240 miles out of my 75 KW.
Charging is odd. Every time you plug in at home, the charger will default to low current and you have to manually adjust it to high current to get 11KW/hr, otherwise it defaults to 110voltage and takes 80-90 hours to charge (as it would for a Tesla plugged into a 110 outlet). It’s incredibly inconvenient for home charging as you plug it in, wait for it to start charging, then go find the transformer on the cord to hit the button to go to high speed - every single time.
Acceleration was around 6.5 seconds to 60 unless you dig through the menu to enable sport mode. Then it would drop to around 5.5 seconds, but you have to do this every time and it’s not a default.
Finally, I really enjoy the serene silence of my MS. It’s like a ninja and I find that folks who have never seen an MS are first shocked at how quiet it is when I roll up. The e-tron makes a very loud fake space-ship type of noise. It’s especially loud in reverse. My 6 and 7 year olds thought it was broken and wondered why it was so loud. It’s a pedestrian safety thing in europe, but shows the contrast between the Tesla being a car built as electric and the Audi as a car turned electric.
The interior is grade A Audi and the exterior is as well. The frunk is only big enough for the charging cord at just a few inches deep - clearly a stretched Q5 converted into an electric car.
It may be appealing to a first time electric driver who already has ICE cars, won’t travel out of town with it (you can’t even charge faster than 21 miles an hour at the dealers now - there are no chargers greater than 11KW yet), doesn’t miss the performance of a normal Audi, and doesn’t mind the space ship noise, oh and the model I had was $94k - so $40K more than a comparably equipped Q5. I had a long talk with folks at the dealer and the owner of the store, it’s going to be a tough sale.... not to wish other EVs less success, but the product is just inferior and non-competitive at that price. The sales stats are bearing it out.

That's a good and fair comparison for both electric cars. I bought my Tesla Model 3 (FirstGen) mainly because, at the time, it has the most range, speed, and availability of chargers. Hopefully, other EV car manufacturers should concentrate more on how to increase the range of their car, the speed of charging and the availability of chargers. If not, they will always catch up with Tesla.

 

[Oldschool496]

$30,000,000,000

Whatever the real figure ends up being smaller percentages of the larger figure go to each state for the individual states to decide how much they MAY spend on charging, a smaller figure yet again. What else would each state spend the rest of the money on? AIR cleaners? Scrubbers? How about LARGE rebates for buying electric vehicles, oh boy thats a fancy idea. Works well in the leading state of electric adoption.

There is no real rebate program at least in this state. Nope fill the coffers of the electorate and state gov't.

Florida for instance is going to sprinkle a few stations(2) per turnpike service plaza. That's a crazy low number. Also, from what I have seen the prices they will/are charging are way over 11-12 cents per kWh we are charged within the vast part of Florida for electricity. Lets install twenty (20) to start at each plaza. See the people making the decisions have never driven electric car and don't want to either.

SO its a money making venture. Completely different then some of the other CURRENT offerings by others, of which I don't need to name here. So if its a money making venture, shouldn't we not pour the money right back into those rebates above. NO it'll get lost in 12 guys standing around a hole while one digs the hole. Then you'll be charging your Porsche and Audi at the dealer or home. Trips will still be off the list and relegated to the family SUV for the most part. Chance to change-SQUANDERED

 

[Chaserr]

First off, Taycan more range than a ModelS-P? I don't think the official announcement of range (EPA) has been announced. Predictions I have seen (on car not Tesla sites) make WAGs of ~ 220 miles based primarily upon the stories for the ETron vs the truth. There has never been a Model S Performance with range that low (when new). Second - faster? By that I hope you mean top speed, or a prolonged measurement like 0-130? Otherwise that statement is false.

I have a friend who recently took delivery of an e-tron, and he loves it. More power to him. I hope it succeeds. Competition is good for all. View attachment 463712
View attachment 463715
Third - please compare apples to apples. It is dishonest to compare the max range of one vehicle with the range when you start at 80% of another, especially when Tesla has NEVER instructed anyone that they cannot or should not charge beyond. They have, when asked, provide guidance to charging levels consistent with maximizing battery life. And 90% has always been the published number dividing daily driving from trips.

I too look forward to people posting about their Taycans. Taycan appears to be a legitimate effort at an electric Porsche, emphasizing performance over more utilitarian things like range. That's a good thing. I hope they succeed.

Tesla is downgrading cars illegally right now, there's a 300 page thread over the class action suit and it's going to be all over the news since Tesl is choosing to fight to keep downgrading people so if this drags on long enough you'll have less trange than a Taycan eventually too. Worse than that, they also downgrade performance. It started with 2019.16 and it sounds like v10 kicked off a new round of freshly downgraded "test group" cars with dramatically reduced range and power.

Porsche has never downgraded or stolen options I bought from any of their cars I've owned, and I have had a lot. Tesla has done it to every Tesla I've had and I won't have another if they are seriously going to tell us it's OK to downgrade us to 60kWh and slow our cars down without notice or compensation. I hope the ongoing class action and NHTSA investigation keeps them from learning about these downgrades firsthand.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Tesla is downgrading cars illegally right now, there's a 300 page thread over the class action suit and it's going to be all over the news since Tesl is choosing to fight to keep downgrading people so if this drags on long enough you'll have less trange than a Taycan eventually too. Worse than that, they also downgrade performance. It started with 2019.16 and it sounds like v10 kicked off a new round of freshly downgraded "test group" cars with dramatically reduced range and power.

Porsche has never downgraded or stolen options I bought from any of their cars I've owned, and I have had a lot. Tesla has done it to every Tesla I've had and I won't have another if they are seriously going to tell us it's OK to downgrade us to 60kWh and slow our cars down without notice or compensation. I hope the ongoing class action and NHTSA investigation keeps them from learning about these downgrades firsthand.

Sounds similar to Apple with the nerfing of performance on older phones
So, if it is an issue it will be the same for Porsche

 

[Chaserr]

Apple lost dozens of class actions over that and Tesla will too. Apple didn't have a federal investigation from the NHTSA's Office of Defects either. Porsche capped the battery from the factory so they don't need to commit any fraud, if this is a universal battery problem that means they're smarter than Tesla who didn't know about the problem and had to steal from us rather than warranty their products.

 

[t-rizzle]

You mean she doesn't understand why people are charging instead of shopping? Why don't people charge at home?

So people cannot stop, plug in, and go into the mall and top off their charge? I had just parked and was by the super charger about to plug in when she drove by. Lots of people super charge so why not take advantage if you have free charging and possibly are just on a road trip. Only one person was sitting in their car at the time.

 

[StealthP3D]

How do you know this? I've seen reports that were provided by testing labs. I'm no paint expert, but after all the problems I've had with my car, I have no reason to doubt lab reports measuring thin, soft paint.

The false reports of thin paint have been debunked by measuring paint thicknesses on random samples. Average paint thickness was more than BMW and none were found to be outside industry norms. I haven't heard of soft paint but we drive our Model 3's on a lot of graveled roads and haven't noticed any issues with the paint being soft. Do you have a link to a credible lab that measured soft paint?

While this is not Consumer Reports test data, these are reports from a number of Tesla model 3 owners, not some tiny number. Consumer Reports would not consider a handful of complaints to be statistically significant.

I've learned to discount random reports from people who say they are owners. There is a lot of noise out there and much of it can be traced back to the $TSLAQ crowd and their make-believe stuff. They actively try to stop people from buying Tesla's with this nonsense. They pray and hope Tesla will go bankrupt and they work to actively make it happen. Just use your own eyes and talk to real owners in the real world like I do. They love their Model 3's and problems with the paint are pretty rare. Problems with reliability are even rarer.

You have two cars you have had for a year. What makes you think your samples are representative of the lot?

I've inspected literally hundreds of Model 3's and haven't seen these issues. I talk to other Model 3 owners and they are almost exclusively good reports.

I will say that when I've taken my car into the shop, there are more S and Xs in than 3s. But that doesn't mean so much. 3s are barely a year old. The model S is some 8 or more years old and the X is at least 4 years old.

Try going to a Ford, GMC or Jeep dealership. Tons of cars in for service. In other words, you can't say a car has problems because the shop is busy, LOL! The Model 3 doesn't have a single recall after two years of production or any endemic reliability problems. It's one of the best cars ever made. That's what people who own and drive them daily tell me when I ask them.

One thing I don't get is while they always have someone washing cars when I am there, they say they don't wash cars for warranty customers any more. Do people really pay to have their cars washed at the Tesla service center?

Maybe they put you on their blacklist.

 

[StealthP3D]

Tesla is downgrading cars illegally right now, there's a 300 page thread over the class action suit and it's going to be all over the news since Tesl is choosing to fight to keep downgrading people so if this drags on long enough you'll have less trange than a Taycan eventually too. Worse than that, they also downgrade performance. It started with 2019.16 and it sounds like v10 kicked off a new round of freshly downgraded "test group" cars with dramatically reduced range and power.

Porsche has never downgraded or stolen options I bought from any of their cars I've owned, and I have had a lot. Tesla has done it to every Tesla I've had and I won't have another if they are seriously going to tell us it's OK to downgrade us to 60kWh and slow our cars down without notice or compensation. I hope the ongoing class action and NHTSA investigation keeps them from learning about these downgrades firsthand.

That's crazy talk! The vast majority of Tesla owners say the regular upgrades are the best thing about the car.

Our Model 3's have so many free upgrades it's not even funny. Faster 0-60 times, higher top speed, 310 miles range increased to 325 miles, added automatic rain-sensing wipers, automatic high beam dimming, Netflix theater, Advanced Summon, Chess, etc. etc. etc. Our cars have so many free upgrades to performance and functionality, I can't even remember them all! Oh, yeah, Dog Mode, we use it all the time - it's great. Oh, yeah, Sentry Mode, keeps an eye on things when we have to park in the city or in a remote area.

Neither of our cars has EVER been downgraded and we were in the first few thousand to take delivery. I think you have to get out of the $TSLAQ echo chamber! The Model 3 is, IMO, the best car ever built.