Any clue why range was reduced on MSP but not MSLR?

[sorka]

So the official explanation for the MSP range reduction is for 2 reasons. One, the EPA changed it's testing routine which doesn't result in an actual reduction, just the way it's listed. Two, some actual range reduction due to "comfort and functionality" improvements.

Tesla has declined to decouple the weighting of reason "1" vs "2". i.e. we don't know how much REAL range reduction there is from reason "2".

Tesla originally claimed to me in a chat that the reason the MSLR didn't have a listed reduction is due to new lower rolling resistance tires that improved the range by the same amount as the reductions for reasons 1 and 2.

This is false. '24 MSLR inventory cars showing up have the exact same tires as before.

To confuse the matter further, the MXLR and MXP are only 9 miles apart in EPA range difference which is a closing of the gap while the MSLR and MSP are now 37 miles apart which is a massive increase in gap. Also, the MXP reduction was only 7 miles vs 37 for the MSP. So all kinds of things just not adding up.

Any thoughts? Range is super important to me because I take long trips of state. What I'm really trying to suss out is the actual real world difference between the '23 and '24 MSP range.

 

[David99]

As far as I understand the EPA now requires to run the test in all drive modes that are available. The Performance as track mode, Sport and Chill. The SR doesn't. There is no physical change on the car.

 

[sorka]

As far as I understand the EPA now requires to run the test in all drive modes that are available. The Performance as track mode, Sport and Chill. The SR doesn't. There is no physical change on the car.

I assume you also meant to include dragstrip mode which both MXP and MSP have but only the MSP has track mode. I wonder if track mode is enough to account for the difference.

So then why did the MXLR get a big range reduction but the MSLR got no range reduction?

 

[E90alex]

There is no real world difference in range for 23 vs 24 because there was no change in the car. Just how it was tested/rated.

 

[sorka]

There is no real world difference in range for 23 vs 24 because there was no change in the car. Just how it was tested/rated.

Incorrect. Tesla states they made "comfort and functionality" improvements that actually reduce the range, but as I explained in the first post, Tesla has declined to state how much of the reduction is due to this ("reason 2") vs the EPA change in testing ("reason 1").

i.e. Reason 1 is not an actual change in reduction. Reason 2 IS.

 

[David99]

The new EPA rule took effect in 2024 hence the sudden change in rated range exactly on that date. Tesla didn't physically change all those cars on that day.

Do you have a link to a list of things they allegedly changed? As fas as I know they took away creep and rolling stopping mode on some cars and only left 'hold' which is the most efficient and gives the highest range in the EPA test. If Tesla wants to call that 'comfort and functionality' changes, they can, it's still the exact same car.

 

[sorka]

The new EPA rule took effect in 2024 hence the sudden change in rated range exactly on that date. Tesla didn't physically change all those cars on that day.

Do you have a link to a list of things they allegedly changed? As fas as I know they took away creep and rolling stopping mode on some cars and only left 'hold' which is the most efficient and gives the highest range in the EPA test. If Tesla wants to call that 'comfort and functionality' changes, they can, it's still the exact same car.

Tesla only states "Comfort and functionality improvements". No other details given.

The date the EPA rule took effect has no relevance. It is re-tested for each model year. If the EPA testing process changed in the middle of last year, it doesn't effect 2023 models until 2024. Further more, Tesla claims to have made actual changes for the '24 model year and since there haven't been any MSPs made yet (lots of MSLRs have been made), it seems likely that the change is real. We just don't know how much of it is related to reason 1 vs reason 2.

 

[David99]

As you said, all those changes between the different models don't add up. Given that they told you about the change in rolling resistance when they have the same tires would be an indication that the 'comfort and functionality' statement should also taken with a grain of salt.

Tesla knew about the new test method ahead of time and probable did whatever they could in software to get the most favorable result. But those options were limited on some versions. For example the new test includes cabin heating now. The performance cars have a chill option. It not only limits power, it also allows the battery temperature to be lower because of the lower power demand. As per Tesla's manual, chill mode allows the car to take heat from the battery and use it for cabin heating. I assume if you start the test cycle with a hot battery, you can heat the cabin for a while 'for free' until the battery has cooled down. In non performance cars chill mode isn't available. That leaves the question, can non P cars also use that trick? And if they can, then that would put the P version at a disadvantage as they have to run the test in Sport mode where the car keeps the battery much warmer, thus having less 'free' energy to cool the cabin. There might be a few of those things that make the range numbers different between the models that don't make sense on the surface.

 

[SilverGS]

So the official explanation for the MSP range reduction is for 2 reasons. One, the EPA changed it's testing routine which doesn't result in an actual reduction, just the way it's listed. Two, some actual range reduction due to "comfort and functionality" improvements.

Tesla has declined to decouple the weighting of reason "1" vs "2". i.e. we don't know how much REAL range reduction there is from reason "2".

Tesla originally claimed to me in a chat that the reason the MSLR didn't have a listed reduction is due to new lower rolling resistance tires that improved the range by the same amount as the reductions for reasons 1 and 2.

This is false. '24 MSLR inventory cars showing up have the exact same tires as before.

To confuse the matter further, the MXLR and MXP are only 9 miles apart in EPA range difference which is a closing of the gap while the MSLR and MSP are now 37 miles apart which is a massive increase in gap. Also, the MXP reduction was only 7 miles vs 37 for the MSP. So all kinds of things just not adding up.

Any thoughts? Range is super important to me because I take long trips of state. What I'm really trying to suss out is the actual real world difference between the '23 and '24 MSP range.

Not to trivialize your very valid concern, but how is a slight reduction in range going to make any difference for your trips? We're not talking about 50 to 100 miles reduction here after all.

Plus it's not recommended to go below 20% SOC anyway unless you absolutely have to.

Unless ofcourse the reason for your concern is that there are no superchargers anywhere close to your trip route.

 

[sorka]

Not to trivialize your very valid concern, but how is a slight reduction in range going to make any difference for your trips? We're not talking about 50 to 100 miles reduction here after all.

Plus it's not recommended to go below 20% SOC anyway unless you absolutely have to.

Unless ofcourse the reason for your concern is that there are no superchargers anywhere close to your trip route.

I have several routes not close to superchargers that would require me going below 20% or up to nearly 100% if the range on the MSP has been reduced by more than 25 miles.

Since the only real 2024 change so far is the center air bag horn and that is retrofittable, if the range really is that much reduced, I might ditch Ultra Red and pick up one the few remaining inventory '23 MSPs

 

[E90alex]

The published range by Tesla is never really achievable in the real world anyways. So if you’re going by that for your calculations for future trips where you would need 300-350+ miles without charging, then you will not make it.

Figure 85-90% of the published figure realistically on a Tesla.

 

[sorka]

The published range by Tesla is never really achievable in the real world anyways. So if you’re going by that for your calculations for future trips where you would need 300-350+ miles without charging, then you will not make it.

Figure 85-90% of the published figure realistically on a Tesla.

That's not true. My P85DL's lifetime wh/mile was 306 which was below rated of 310, over 134K miles. That includes short trips. City driving and all the driving when I wasn't trying to be careful and driving way over the speed limit. On long trips in the summer when I was being careful because I needed range, I typically averaged 270 to 280 wh/mile over multi thousand mile trips. My best ever single commutes (130 miles in each direction) when I was trying to be careful was 255 to 258 wh/mile which was 21% better than rated.

I was able to achieve rated in my MXP but only on long trips while being careful. The EPA rating on that one was clearly gamed a lot more than my 2015 S.

If most of the change in the rating is not a real reduction in the 2023 range but is mostly down due to driving modes you'd never use on a long trip, then it shouldn't be an issue.

At any rate, we're getting off topic here. The topic is trying to speculate what the actual range reduction if any on the MSP is during normal driving not using dragstrip or track mode.

The earlier comment about the battery thermal management being less strict in chill mode sounds very similar to the old range mode.

 

[sorka]

So since the MSLR has dragstrip mode and has the same tires as last year, how come it's range wasn't at least partly reduced if the MSPs range was reduced because of dragstrip and track mode?

 

[SoCal Buzz]

Tesla states they made "comfort and functionality" improvements that actually reduce the range

That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. Tesla is rather opaque, to put it in polite terms.

 

[SoCal Buzz]

So since the MSLR has dragstrip mode and has the same tires as last year, how come it's range wasn't at least partly reduced if the MSPs range was reduced because of dragstrip and track mode?

Didn’t they limit the top speed on LR, which would factor into the calculation? While on Plaid, the tri-motor at full output in drag strip mode will use a lot more energy.

 

[ucmndd]

I really strongly doubt there were any physical or functionality changes to the car whatsoever.

 

[sorka]

That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. Tesla is rather opaque, to put it in polite terms.

Except that why then admit that there is a real range reduction due to "comfort and functionality" changes rather than just blaming the entire thing on EPA testing changes? It's to their detriment if it isn't true, so why lie when the lie makes you look worse than the truth?

 

[sorka]

I really strongly doubt there were any physical or functionality changes to the car whatsoever.

I'd like to believe that. If so, then why not just point to the EPA testing changes and say the entire 37 mile reduction is due to that?

 

[David99]

So since the MSLR has dragstrip mode and has the same tires as last year, how come it's range wasn't at least partly reduced if the MSPs range was reduced because of dragstrip and track mode?

The Model S LR doesn't have track mode.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-4B41E787-8D69-4338-98B8-2F70A76629A8.html#:~:text=Track%20Mode%2C%20available%20only%20on,driving%20on%20closed%20circuit%20courses.

 

[sorka]

The Model S LR doesn't have track mode.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-4B41E787-8D69-4338-98B8-2F70A76629A8.html#:~:text=Track%20Mode%2C%20available%20only%20on,driving%20on%20closed%20circuit%20courses.

So why wasn't the MSLRs range at least partially reduced if they started testing with dragstrip mode and track mode since the MSLR does have dragstrip mode?