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alexgr

Member
Aug 13, 2019
383
234
Tulsa
Apple being Apple... I am assuming Apple will require a non-standard charging port? And will only accept Apple pay?
A firebolt? Makes your car a toast in 5 minutes.

Non-Tesla non-CCS ports would require a non-Anybody-Else charging infrastructure. It is almost stupid now to introduce new standards, and in 4 years it will be Apple-size stupid. I don't think an Apple car will happen ... ever. They are nothing more than a successful software company. The times of Macintosh II are unfortunately all but gone for Apple. It's great to see that innovation momentum going at Tesla and SpaceX. We are watching the real history of transformational innovation there... but not at Apple.
 
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Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,261
7,114
Visalia, CA
...Apple is building a "monocell" design that will bulk up the individual battery cells and free up space inside the battery pack by removing pouches and modules that hold battery materials. This will allow for more active material in a smaller package...

What does that mean?

Does that mean instead of having thousands of cells, now it is only "monocell"? One cell?

Instead of having many cells, many modules, now the whole thing is "monocell", one single module, one single compartment?
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,551
1,836
Seattle
What does that mean?

Does that mean instead of having thousands of cells, now it is only "monocell"? One cell?

Instead of having many cells, many modules, now the whole thing is "monocell", one single module, one single compartment?

I'm no expert here but I think the problem here is heat. Heat generated by a battery increases by the volume of the battery, and so is proportional to the cube of the battery size, while surface area where you can dissipate only goes up with the square of the size. So bigger batteries are much harder to keep cool. A battery twice as big generates 8x as much heat but only has 4x the surface area from which to dissipate it.
 

voyager

Member
Apr 28, 2009
919
466
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Curious...

0f30b6dbc04ccf1ac4ef7278de88a63f1ae119f8c67def71f27016c5e11af078.jpg
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,530
2,368
Eastvale, CA
LiFePO4 will work, but it's certainly not 'next generation'. I drove the CODA LiFePO4 car in the summer of 2012. It was a good effort for 2012, but had no real advantages except safety. If you've destroyed some LiFePO4 batteries before, you know they take a lot of abuse before igniting. Polymer cells are fireworks comparatively speaking.

Apple cannot make a car that is under 48 volts (15 cells in series), and at 48 volts it's going to be a dog. To get a reliable 100 hp they need over 1500 amps. I'm betting someone confused monoblock with monocell.

I don't imagine Apple would go under 400 volts due to existing infrastructure. All EV batteries are 2+ parallel cells in 88+ series. What if you just stopped making parallel cells? Put all the cells in series. Think of your car battery. That is actually a monoblock battery with 6 cells, 1p6s.
 
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alexgr

Member
Aug 13, 2019
383
234
Tulsa
I'm no expert here but I think the problem here is heat. Heat generated by a battery increases by the volume of the battery, and so is proportional to the cube of the battery size, while surface area where you can dissipate only goes up with the square of the size. So bigger batteries are much harder to keep cool. A battery twice as big generates 8x as much heat but only has 4x the surface area from which to dissipate it.

The problem here is that an electrochemical cell provides the electric potential difference in the range of 1 to 5 volts. One can't, absolutely can't, get 350 V from a single cell. Other problem include a huge capacitance that makes everything extremely slow and zero redundancy that mean any leaky spot will immediately trash the entire battery. All these are before we come to the problem of heat that you describe. Elon was very surprised too: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1341484482302533635
 

mierwins

Member
Apr 10, 2020
19
11
Illinois
If this happens and Apple follows their iPhone trends then they will have last year's features from Tesla, claim they are NEW features and ask at least a 20% premium. Not only that but they'll slow your car down after two years and force you to buy a new one if you ever want to take it on the highway.

Apple car.....that's funny!
 
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dipper

Member
Nov 4, 2017
227
131
92129
If this happens and Apple follows their iPhone trends then they will have last year's features from Tesla, claim they are NEW features and ask at least a 20% premium. Not only that but they'll slow your car down after two years and force you to buy a new one if you ever want to take it on the highway.

Apple car.....that's funny!

Doesn't Tesla do some of those now already?
Slow down battery charging after a few years. Reports of slowing down Ludicrous mode (rather quietly removed it). And not willing to fix older car, but happy to sell a new car instead.
 
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Fred42

Member
Dec 24, 2018
887
2,488
Pennsylvania
If Apple had bought Tesla, what would Elon have been doing then?

Retired or work for Apple... and replace Tim?​

Do you think that Elon Musk is going to work only for SpaceX after the delivery of the new Tesla Roaster?
It's good that Apple didn't buy Tesla because the pace of iteration and risk-taking would have been missing.

Apple doesn't seem like a good match for Elon's objectives. He might have moved on.

Elon is still needed at Tesla. He has amazing abilities to multitask and delegate while retaining overall control. My guess is he'll remain CEO at Tesla, but I'm worried about the next couple of years-because he is despised by so many people in Washington in both parties. I hope he is taking this seriously and has political advisers and lobbyists on board.
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,551
1,836
Seattle
The problem here is that an electrochemical cell provides the electric potential difference in the range of 1 to 5 volts. One can't, absolutely can't, get 350 V from a single cell. Other problem include a huge capacitance that makes everything extremely slow and zero redundancy that mean any leaky spot will immediately trash the entire battery. All these are before we come to the problem of heat that you describe. Elon was very surprised too: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1341484482302533635
Yeah I was assuming you would need at least enough cells to get the required voltage.
 

dgatwood

Member
Dec 20, 2017
752
822
Sunnyvale, ca
I'm no expert here but I think the problem here is heat. Heat generated by a battery increases by the volume of the battery, and so is proportional to the cube of the battery size, while surface area where you can dissipate only goes up with the square of the size. So bigger batteries are much harder to keep cool. A battery twice as big generates 8x as much heat but only has 4x the surface area from which to dissipate it.

That's not necessarily a problem. Ostensibly, a pouch-style battery could be shaped to have a much larger surface area relative to its volume than round cells. For example, imagine a thin, almost flat battery that is repeatedly folded back over itself, leaving a small gap in between, with water flowing through the gaps to cool it. I'm not sure how you would actually build such a thing in practice, but I think it is at least theoretically possible. :)


Apple being Apple... I am assuming Apple will require a non-standard charging port? And will only accept Apple pay?

It will charge with a lightning cable. :D
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,551
1,836
Seattle
That's not necessarily a problem. Ostensibly, a pouch-style battery could be shaped to have a much larger surface area relative to its volume than round cells. For example, imagine a thin, almost flat battery that is repeatedly folded back over itself, leaving a small gap in between, with water flowing through the gaps to cool it. I'm not sure how you would actually build such a thing in practice, but I think it is at least theoretically possible. :)

Agreed, though I suspect in practice when you have done all the convolutions to get that, having distinct batteries is probably better. However, it will be interesting to see if/what/when Apple do some up with something (if ever).
 

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