Are any of the new V4’s in North America CCS1 compatible?

[MP3Mike]

So not crippled, and certainly not a reason to turn down Nevi money.

There are plenty of reasons Tesla might want to turn down the money. (Just like they recently turned down the ~$6M they were awarded from California because they didn't want to meet the requirements.)

Some of them could be:

• Required to have a 24x7 number to accept credit cards over the phone.
• Required to accept payment through any other charge network vendor. (Do they really want to share a portion of the money with EA, EVgo, ChargePoint, Ford, etc.)
• Required to share live stall usage data with everyone via API. (Tesla has actively resisted this, and changed their API to prevent it.)
• Some states/territories may require on-site physical credit card readers.
• Some states/territories may require on-site physical displays.
• Some states/territories are going to require Plug&Charge support.
• Locations dictated by NEVI AFCs and being ~50 miles from the next closest NEVI AFC site and within one mile of the AFC.
• MagicDock may not qualify for NEVI funding as it isn't really a permanently attached CCS Type 1 connector.
• Tesla probably doesn't want to wait for NEVI funding. The first NEVI funding likely won't be issued until early next year, Tesla isn't going to wait a year on their quest to double the network by the end of 2024.
• Not wanting to be subjected to the FUD about Tesla only surviving because of the Millions/Billions of dollars given to them by the government.

I'm sure there are more, as I haven't read all of the requirements yet. (And the final Federal requirements were just released this week, so now all 52 states/territories have to go through and apply whatever they want on top of that before they issue the RFPs.)

If they do submit proposals they will likely be competing against a lot of other companies, some of which are likely:

• Electrify America
• EVgo
• ChargePoint
• Blink
• EV Connect
• Greenlots
• West Coast Electric Highway
• CircleK
• TravelCenters of America
• Flying J Truck Stops
• Pilot Truck Stops
• Shell Recharge
• Exxon
• Rivian
• Local Power Utilities

Tesla V4 supercharger, as part of their plan to support the 1000v Tesla Semi at a megawatt, can certainly handle 350kW at 800v if they wish to deploy in Oregon.

Tesla hasn't released any V4 Supercharger specs. Tesla Semi charging doesn't use the Superchargers, it currently uses the MCS protype 2 connector. (Which is likely using the V4 cables that they shared details of at the Semi delivery event.)

(A better approach might be to say, "Hey, Oregon, if you don't want any more Tesla stations, that's up to you, but why don't you fix that law and let us do our job?)

You are assuming that if Tesla submits a proposal to all of the 52 states/territories that they would be selected for some/all of the NEVI funding. That isn't guaranteed at all. Most of the places that Tesla would want to install sites aren't likely to be open for NEVI funding. (Tesla already has most of the NEVI AFCs covered.)

I suspect the most likely places would submit proposals for are in Northern states like Montana and North Dakota where Tesla doesn't already have the AFCs mostly covered.

 

[bradtem]

I agree there's a lot of burdens on NEVI funding. Hopefully some of them can be reduced because Tesla can say, "Everybody knows Tesla stations are the best by a large margin. Want them in your state? Then don't put in silly requirements. Up to you, really."

And then apply, and if they get it, it's worth it dancing through a few hoops -- like plug and charge which is a good idea anyway if they are doing CCS and making station availability fetchable. I would be surprised if they are forced to pay commissions to other apps, other than a fixed credit card like commission. Anyway they can add it to the price.

They clearly think the subsidy money is worth it. They applied for grants in Texas. They are putting CCS on, in part to get it and make nice with the feds, but I think mostly to get they money.

My point is the 150kW requirement is not a big burden. You described it as crippling the other chargers at a station and that's just not the case.

 

[MP3Mike]

They clearly think the subsidy money is worth it. They applied for grants in Texas.

We don't know the requirements or in that money. They took some in Canada too, but there were minimal requirements on it. (I think just installing a few third-party chargers and turning them over to Flo to operate at each site.)

My point is the 150kW requirement is not a big burden. You described it as crippling the other chargers at a station and that's just not the case.

I disagree as it will make for really bad experiences on heavy travel days. And it will only get worse as more big battery/fast charging vehicles are put on the road.

 

[stopcrazypp]

We don't know the requirements or in that money. They took some in Canada too, but there were minimal requirements on it. (I think just installing a few third-party chargers and turning them over to Flo to operate at each site.)


I disagree as it will make for really bad experiences on heavy travel days. And it will only get worse as more big battery/fast charging vehicles are put on the road.

Given Biden just made a big announcement about the Tesla commitment to open stations to other EVs, I presume they would make the deal worthwhile to Tesla, perhaps something separate from NEVI, or providing funding for Tesla to expand capacity if they were to force Tesla to follow NEVI requirements.

In the announcement, they did mention specifically the stations would be accessible by app or website, so would seem to bypass the credit card requirements.
FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers - The White House

If the Biden admin puts in NEVI roadblocks, they would only be shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[MP3Mike]

Given Biden made a big deal about the Tesla commitment to open stations to other EVs, I presume they would make the deal worthwhile to Tesla, perhaps something separate from NEVI

If Biden gave them anything it would have to be separate, as the states/territories control the majority, if not all, of the NEVI funding.

 

[bradtem]

While there is some anti-Tesla sentiment out there, obviously, and the other car OEMs like to promote it, one hopes there is some virtue in the reality -- Tesla runs the best charging network, and not by a small margin either, so if the states want value for their money they are wise to amend to work with Tesla, especially if the feds are encouraging it. Of course, that doesn't mean we can be sure they will do the rational thing.

Tesla might do a little promotion of the fact that they would be happy to offer good charging in a state if only the states would not try to have chargers designed by the government. The car OEMs would dislike this but the drivers themselves have all heard about how much better Tesla stations are than the ones they use, and they are angry at the ones they use.

You keep saying that having 4 station set to 150kW will cripple other stalls and make a "really bad experience." You are going to have to show how that will happen because I don't see it.

The reason I don't see it is because Tesla controls how much it provisions a station for. It can provision for enough to make sure there won't be a bad experience. It doesn't want to offer one. The big pile of free money, if they decide to take it, more than pays for the extra provisioning. As I contend, that extra provisioning is really not that much, so it's really profitable to take the pile of money, give 4 stations priority, and bring in more than enough extra power so that the worst that happens is that 4 stations get a tiny -- and I mean tiny -- amount more power than others, and nobody notices.

Say we have a typical Tesla station with 20 chargers. Say you give it 2 megawatts. On very, very, rare occasions the 4 priority chargers will take 600kW of that for short periods when all 4 cars are not Teslas and taking the full power. (I don't know if they are bound to give 150kW to Teslas, they can make a different contract with their own customers I suspect.) Now since Teslas are 70% of the cars out there, the odds of 4 non-Teslas at those stations are quite low, and the odds of 4 non-Teslas all at low SoC and drawing 150kW are even lower. But say it happens. For a few minutes the others stalls average 87.5kW instead of 100kW.

Nobody is going to notice.

 

[MP3Mike]

Given Biden just made a big announcement about the Tesla commitment to open stations to other EVs, I presume they would make the deal worthwhile to Tesla, perhaps something separate from NEVI, or providing funding for Tesla to expand capacity if they were to force Tesla to follow NEVI requirements.

In the announcement, they did mention specifically the stations would be accessible by app or website, so would seem to bypass the credit card requirements.
FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers - The White House

If the Biden admin puts in NEVI roadblocks, they would only be shooting themselves in the foot.

I wonder if our main clue is this:

All EV drivers will be able to access these stations using the Tesla app or website.

If that is complete and accurate, then Tesla wouldn't qualify for NEVI funding for what they open. (As they can't limit access to the Telse app and website.) As that would require being able to use any charging network provider to access stations. (And may require RFID readers to read all of those ChargePoint, EVgo, Blink, etc. RFID cards.) Also, if you can't use a credit card without signing up for an account, it isn't NEVI compliant.

While there is some anti-Tesla sentiment out there, obviously, and the other car OEMs like to promote it, one hopes there is some virtue in the reality -- Tesla runs the best charging network, and not by a small margin either, so if the states want value for their money they are wise to amend to work with Tesla, especially if the feds are encouraging it. Of course, that doesn't mean we can be sure they will do the rational thing.

States can't remove NEVI requirements; they can only add additional requirements.

 

[bradtem]

I wonder if our main clue is this:



If that is complete and accurate, then Tesla wouldn't qualify for NEVI funding for what they open. (As they can't limit access to the Telse app and website.) As that would require being able to use any charging network provider to access stations. (And may require RFID readers to read all of those ChargePoint, EVgo, Blink, etc. RFID cards.) Also, if you can't use a credit card without signing up for an account, it isn't NEVI compliant.


States can't remove NEVI requirements; they can only add additional requirements.

It is possible for the federal government, now that it is finally talking with Tesla rather than leaving them out of meetings, to improve the NEVI requirements, in concert with the states. Indeed, we should all hope they do.

However, the requirements only bind to 4 stalls if Tesla should wish it (though as I was indicating they might like to keep stalls identical.) So if it is required for long cords, they could limit to 4 long cords -- and even put medium length cords on other stations.

They probably won't make the cords as long as many CCS stations which can reach you even if you go in frontways in a Tesla. Looks like the Audi/Lucid location shown is the furthest one.

Do the NEVI regulations forbid having a membership plan for lower prices, the way EA does? Now Tesla has said theirs will only be $1/month, but they could make it $30/month if they wanted (included for Teslas) and suddenly get a lot fewer non-Teslas. I don't see that violating the regs.

 

[moa999]

New 51 stall Tesla site in Sutherland, OR. (per @TeslaCharging)

Note the layout and spacing bottom right - plus the marking "EV Charging Only".
With the removal of the cross hatching suspect these can accommodate vehicles with ports on either side.

 

[MP3Mike]

Note the layout and spacing bottom right - plus the marking "EV Charging Only".
With the removal of the cross hatching suspect these accommodate vehicles with ports on either side.

Those are the disabled person charging stalls...

 

[bradtem]

New 51 stall Tesla site in Sutherland, OR. (per @TeslaCharging)

Note the layout and spacing bottom right - plus the marking "EV Charging Only".
With the removal of the cross hatching suspect these can accommodate vehicles with ports on either side.

You might find the chargers in Chico more interesting -- they have parking spots behind them with Tesla style stops but at an angle that could easily be arranged to let you access the other side of a car. Notice the Telsla on the other side using the the stall which really is for the space in the middle. Those spaces behind are just parking, but they don't have to be.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

They could use the trailer stall setup…which would suck for us towing trailers.

 

[bradtem]

They could use the trailer stall setup…which would suck for us towing trailers.

View attachment 908862

These are rare. And I have seen brand new stations where they did not make one (which surprised me.) Charged earlier this week at the new Gutine 32 stall charger (not even fully in operation) and I was alone -- but no charger like that. You could charge sideways of course, taking 2-3 stalls.

And even this charger only helps non-Teslas if they park in strange ways, not in the space. Some configs like at Baker you could handle more different cars but it eats up a lot of space to do it that way. Perhaps that is the plan for the CCS compatible stations, which means they don't plan to make every stall CCS compatible.

 

[MP3Mike]

Here is a picture of the MagicDock installed at a V3 Supercharger in Verona, NY:

It appears that they were putting them on all 12 stalls:

 

[RichardV]

Here is a picture of the MagicDock installed at a V3 Supercharger in Verona, NY:

It appears that they were putting them on all 12 stalls:

Also includes the new tesla signage on how to charge your non-tesla.

Superchargers in Australia

The supercharger network was Teslas main selling point for me. Now I have to contend with non Tesla's. A bit selfish yes, but disappointed none the less A rising tide lifts all boats.

teslamotorsclub.com

Which takes you to,

Tesla

www.tesla.com

Based on when some Australian sites became live for non-tesla I would think it must be imminent for limited US sites now.

 

[FRAN SCHRADER]

Hey guys I'm the one that took the pictures in the post above I'm going to try and get some more detailed pictures tomorrow

 

[stopcrazypp]

Hey guys I'm the one that took the pictures in the post above I'm going to try and get some more detailed pictures tomorrow

Thanks for the effort, I'm guessing people are most interested in how the adapter looks and connects to the dock, although it might not be possible to unlock it yet currently.

 

[MP3Mike]

Thanks for the effort, I'm guessing people are most interested in how the adapter looks and connects to the dock, although it might not be possible to unlock it yet currently.

Yep, until the site shows in the "Charge your non-Tesla" section of the app you won't be able to unlock the CCS adapter.

 

[moa999]

A few zoomed in shots of the dock itself might help discover the secrets.

 

[FRAN SCHRADER]