Are any of the new V4’s in North America CCS1 compatible?

[stopcrazypp]

Thanks for the clarification.

My bad: There are no Magic Dock pictures, and I got confused about what they are!

Actually there is, the bigger box is supposed to be it, although there is no up-close picture and how it looks with the cable removed. You can see the difference in the original drive canada article with how existing V3s are (which are much smaller). The leaked app also shows a big box which the cable docks to.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It requires 150kW to all 4 stalls at the same time, neither V2 or V3 can do that.

And in Oregon it requires 3) 150kW and 1) 350kW stalls.

According to Out of Spec Motoring, one way to comply is to have very high voltage capability, but have a cable that is only 200A capable. So technically it maxes at "150kW" but in reality most cars get ~90kW.

If Tesla can bump up the max voltage spec of the magic dock version (maybe have the 1000V capable version of the NACS), they can use this way to have a "NEVI-compliant" version but it'll stay largely the same in terms of supercharger usage.

 

[MP3Mike]

According to Out of Spec Motoring, one way to comply is to have very high voltage capability, but have a cable that is only 200A capable. So technically it maxes at "150kW" but in reality most cars get ~90kW.

Yeah, they also implied that that 2 stall site would qualify... But we know that it requires a minimum of 4 stalls.

So I'm not sure that know what they are talking about.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah, they also implied that that 2 stall site would qualify... But we know that it requires a minimum of 4 stalls.

So I'm not sure that know what they are talking about.

Not really, it seems he only said the stall is compliant for the 150kW rating, he did not say that particular installation with only 2 stalls is compliant overall.

Jule seems to claim the same (they qualify as 150kW, but you need to install 4 of them):
Spotlight

You can see their charger is rated for 150kW, but maxes at 200A and 1000V (so needs a car charging at minimum 750V to actually output 150kW).
Jule Chargers

So basically Tesla can just make the Magic Dock ones 1000V compatible, and they don't have to change the supercharging splitting for Teslas (given each one supplying 200A, maybe even only 150A is already compliant).

 

[MP3Mike]

So basically Tesla can just make the Magic Dock ones 1000V compatible, and they don't have to change the supercharging splitting for Teslas (given each one supplying 200A is already compliant).

But the V2/V3 hardware doesn't support voltages that high.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But the V2/V3 hardware doesn't support voltages that high.

The EU stalls are 1000V rated though, although the cabinets would need changing too (I'm not aware if the CCS cars charging there are able to charge at 800V for example Taycan):

Ultimate/future max charge rate of V3 superchargers?

A cheaper way to do this is to have a step-up converter like the Taycan uses on-board to support 400V charging. Should be a way to bypass the states with stricter interpretations of NEVI (others pointed out California doesn't seem to take that strict reading of 4x150kW simultaneous), while keeping hardware as close to original as possible (for purposes of charging Teslas).

Edit: I see where California takes the 600kW+ total requirement from, it's actually from a clarifying federal document posted after the rule document (page 26):
"All EV charger infrastructure installed as part of the NEVI Formula Program along the designated corridors should be Direct-Current (DC) Fast Chargers. Stations should be designed to provide at least four Combined Charging System (CCS) ports capable of simultaneously charging four EVs. Station power capability should be no less than 600 kW (supporting at least 150 kW per port simultaneously across four ports) for charging."
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environmen...nations/90d_nevi_formula_program_guidance.pdf

This makes a lot more sense than penalizing installations that happened to add more than 4 150kW stalls for flexibility (as that actually results in a much better station). As long as the station is 600kW+ total (meaning at least 4 cars can charge at 150kW simultaneously when other stalls are empty) then it's ok. It makes little sense to say that any 4 stalls must be able to charge 150kW even when other stalls (beyond the 4) are occupied, as that forces station builders to only have 4 stalls to comply when having a smaller power connection. With this interpretation, Tesla doesn't really have to do any workarounds with the V3s (which tend to be 1MW installations).

 

[moa999]

Similar to Oregon, Tesla has also won funding in Australia, in the biggest state NSW (includes Sydney) for 32 supercharger sites and 300+ stalls.

Australia is similar to Europe with V3 Superchargers being CCS2, and earlier V2s being a CCS2/ modified Type 2 combo.
But Australia is yet to open up any superchargers to third party cars. About 20 paid V3 wall chargers are open and accessible to other Type2 cars via the Tesla app.

NSW Govt Tender requirements included
- at least two 350+ kW sites
- non-app based payment options including contactless credit cards and the state transport card (Opal, which runs over a common EMV system)
- meet accessibility requirements for at least one stall
- at least one CHAdeMO charge
- AC backup (ie. Wall chargers)
- open access to all EVs
But all clauses subject to negotiation and final contracts not published.

First major payment doesn't occur until 30% launch target hit (approx 10 sites, 100 stalls)

Tesla has already opened two sites, 10 stalls.
But for the moment these are CCS2 Tesla only, with no sign of CHAdeMO or non-app based payment.

 

[srs5694]

I still don’t understand how it works. Until I see an animation I don’t think I’ll understand. I don’t see a second cable. It just looks like another place to hang the connector.

Details are still sparse. The tweet referenced by @Tam doesn't seem to provide any new details, as far as I can see, except a somewhat clearer image of the mounting point. AFAIK, the most detailed publicly-accessible description is still from a six-month-old article by Drive Tesla Canada, which states:

Instead of the connector docking into the side of the Supercharger, the new Magic Dock (aka CCS adapter) will attach to the top opening in the pedestal. When not in use the connector will be docked and hang from the bottom of the adapter.

As I read it, this means that CCS1-equipped stalls will have one cable and a NACS-to-CCS1 adapter that's keyed in some way (mechanically and/or electronically) so that it must remain attached to the cable or the pedestal (or both) at all times, so as to prevent theft. (I'm inferring the keying part, because if it weren't keyed, theft of the adapter by vandals would be rampant.) In practice, it would be a bit like the Tesla plugs that EVgo has already deployed, that use a modified version of Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter, but in reverse and providing a CCS1 plug for non-Teslas. That's a pretty elegant and cost-effective solution, compared to a pedestal that has two expensive cables hanging off it.

So to be clear. There is no adapter involved. It’s just a Supercharger stall with a CCS cable.

Do you have a source for this claim? To be sure, the reporting on the Magic Dock is quite thin and poorly-sourced, so I take it with a grain of salt. I could easily believe that Tesla would deploy Supercharger sites with a combination of NACS-only and CCS1-only stalls, but what little reporting there is suggests otherwise. (I realize that Tesla has deployed a few sites like this already, but that was 1+ years ago, and used third-party equipment for CCS1 support. The V4 and Magic Dock stuff is entirely different.)

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Details are still sparse. The tweet referenced by @Tam doesn't seem to provide any new details, as far as I can see, except a somewhat clearer image of the mounting point. AFAIK, the most detailed publicly-accessible description is still from a six-month-old article by Drive Tesla Canada, which states:

As I read it, this means that CCS1-equipped stalls will have one cable and a NACS-to-CCS1 adapter that's keyed in some way (mechanically and/or electronically) so that it must remain attached to the cable or the pedestal (or both) at all times, so as to prevent theft. (I'm inferring the keying part, because if it weren't keyed, theft of the adapter by vandals would be rampant.) In practice, it would be a bit like the Tesla plugs that EVgo has already deployed, that use a modified version of Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter, but in reverse and providing a CCS1 plug for non-Teslas. That's a pretty elegant and cost-effective solution, compared to a pedestal that has two expensive cables hanging off it.

Do you have a source for this claim? To be sure, the reporting on the Magic Dock is quite thin and poorly-sourced, so I take it with a grain of salt. I could easily believe that Tesla would deploy Supercharger sites with a combination of NACS-only and CCS1-only stalls, but what little reporting there is suggests otherwise. (I realize that Tesla has deployed a few sites like this already, but that was 1+ years ago, and used third-party equipment for CCS1 support. The V4 and Magic Dock stuff is entirely different.)

Sorry, my bad. I neglected the question mark. I was asking if that was a true statement. My bad.

 

[srs5694]

Sorry, my bad. I neglected the question mark. I was asking if that was a true statement. My bad.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[RTPEV]

As I read it, this means that CCS1-equipped stalls will have one cable and a NACS-to-CCS1 adapter that's keyed in some way (mechanically and/or electronically) so that it must remain attached to the cable or the pedestal (or both) at all times, so as to prevent theft.

This is my guess too. Normally the adapter is locked to the pedestal so that a Tesla driver can just come up and grab the Tesla connector out of the "magic dock/adapter". But when a CCS user comes up to the station and keys the station ID into their app, the Tesla connector locks into the adapter, and then the adapter unlocks from the pedestal, so now when it is grabbed the adapter comes out with the handle. That's the "magic".

 

[Webeevdrivers]

This is my guess too. Normally the adapter is locked to the pedestal so that a Tesla driver can just come up and grab the Tesla connector out of the "magic dock/adapter". But when a CCS user comes up to the station and keys the station ID into their app, the Tesla connector locks into the adapter, and then the adapter unlocks from the pedestal, so now when it is grabbed the adapter comes out with the handle. That's the "magic".

Ok. I can envision that in my little blind mind. But these are not on standard V3’s right? These would be on V4’s that comply with the NEVI spec?

 

[MP3Mike]

Ok. I can envision that in my little blind mind. But these are not on standard V3’s right? These would be on V4’s that comply with the NEVI spec?

We have no idea. They could be V3s. We have heard nothing from Tesla on them planning to make NEVI compliant sites, or applying for NEVI funding.

In fact, I don't expect them to at all. For lots of reasons, for example:

• Each state will have its own rules, so there will be more than 50 different sets of rules to figure out and different application processes.
  • Some states may choose to do the installs themselves, and not give any money out to any third parties.
• Too many other things they would have to do, like install on-site displays/credit card readers, 24x7 staffed phone number to remotely initiate charging.
• Siting issues, like it has to be ~50 miles from the closest NEVI compliant site and within ~1 mile of the specific identified highways.

I haven't researched other states, but Oregon is thinking that they will contract with either one provider for all the work to be done in a year, or one provider per highway. (That may have to change once they receive the bids.)

 

[MP3Mike]

Edit: I see where California takes the 600kW+ total requirement from, it's actually from a clarifying federal document posted after the rule document (page 26):
"All EV charger infrastructure installed as part of the NEVI Formula Program along the designated corridors should be Direct-Current (DC) Fast Chargers. Stations should be designed to provide at least four Combined Charging System (CCS) ports capable of simultaneously charging four EVs. Station power capability should be no less than 600 kW (supporting at least 150 kW per port simultaneously across four ports) for charging."
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environmen...nations/90d_nevi_formula_program_guidance.pdf

This makes a lot more sense than penalizing installations that happened to add more than 4 150kW stalls for flexibility (as that actually results in a much better station). As long as the station is 600kW+ total (meaning at least 4 cars can charge at 150kW simultaneously when other stalls are empty) then it's ok. It makes little sense to say that any 4 stalls must be able to charge 150kW even when other stalls (beyond the 4) are occupied, as that forces station builders to only have 4 stalls to comply when having a smaller power connection. With this interpretation, Tesla doesn't really have to do any workarounds with the V3s (which tend to be 1MW installations).

Did you miss the next bit of gudiance?

Power sharing across ports should be permitted so long as it does not reduce the maximum output per port below 150 kW. For stations with ports above 150kW, States should support station design that facilitate power sharing across ports.

So every NEVI funded port has to be able to supply 150kW at all times.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

We have no idea. They could be V3s. We have heard nothing from Tesla on them planning to make NEVI compliant sites, or applying for NEVI funding.

In fact, I don't expect them to at all. For lots of reasons, for example:

• Each state will have its own rules, so there will be more than 50 different sets of rules to figure out and different application processes.
  • Some states may choose to do the installs themselves, and not give any money out to any third parties.
• Too many other things they would have to do, like install on-site displays/credit card readers, 24x7 staffed phone number to remotely initiate charging.
• Siting issues, like it has to be ~50 miles from the closest NEVI compliant site and within ~1 mile of the specific identified highways.

I haven't researched other states, but Oregon is thinking that they will contract with either one provider for all the work to be done in a year, or one provider per highway. (That may have to change once they receive the bids.)

Ah ok. Makes sense. Does the NEVI standard require credit card readers or is an app sufficient?

 

[RTPEV]

Ok. I can envision that in my little blind mind. But these are not on standard V3’s right? These would be on V4’s that comply with the NEVI spec?

Right now they don't exist anywhere, and whether or not they comply with the NEVI spec is immaterial. And only Tesla knows at the moment what their plans are.

Again, this is just a guess, but my guess would be that they don't bother with retrofitting these to V3's, but rather just implement it in V4 hardware. If there is a site that they feel would benefit from being upgraded to CCS support, my sense is that they would probably just build out another site nearby, or possibly even rip up (and redeploy) the V3s and install V4s. It's hard to imagine a scenario where it would be worth it to them to go in and upgrade a V3 in this fashion.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Right now they don't exist anywhere, and whether or not they comply with the NEVI spec is immaterial. And only Tesla knows at the moment what their plans are.

Again, this is just a guess, but my guess would be that they don't bother with retrofitting these to V3's, but rather just implement it in V4 hardware. If there is a site that they feel would benefit from being upgraded to CCS support, my sense is that they would probably just build out another site nearby, or possibly even rip up (and redeploy) the V3s and install V4s. It's hard to imagine a scenario where it would be worth it to them to go in and upgrade a V3 in this fashion.

Makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers.

 

[MP3Mike]

Does the NEVI standard require credit card readers or is an app sufficient?

I don't think that is clear at this point. In Oregon, yes it is required. I think it is in Arizona as well. (Arizona also requires Plug&Charge compatibility which I don't think Oregon does.)

 

[stopcrazypp]

Did you miss the next bit of gudiance?



So every NEVI funded port has to be able to supply 150kW at all times.

I take that to mean while the 4 ports are in use (for example when there are 4 cars in use it can't for example drop one car below 150kW). As you interpret it (that it applies even to the 4+ car), it makes for a worse station design and doesn't make sense (I expect operators to fight it). Like if there is a 600kW installation, forcing the station to only have 4 stalls makes for a much worse station with poor utilization of the resources.

If state take the your interpretation, then Tesla will just have to bypass using the high voltage provision as mentioned.

California's guidelines at least doesn't take that interpretation, they only say the 600kW+. I guess we'll see when the installations start coming out.

 

[RTPEV]

I take that to mean while the 4 ports are in use (for example when there are 4 cars in use it can't for example drop one car below 150kW). As you interpret it (that it applies even to the 4+ car), it makes for a worse station design and doesn't make sense

That's right. As with many other government authored policies, sometimes (most times?) they don't make sense.

Now I'm not anti-government and don't think they should stay out of the way, but I acknowledge that the folks working on these tend to be staffers with poli-sci degrees, not electrical engineering, who just aren't going to get all these nuances. That's why having lobbyists act in appropriate ways can be helpful (to lend technical expertise where needed), but of course you also have the anti-lobbyists who will do what they can to make sure they cripple the effect of the legislation.