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Article in the Wash Examiner Electric cars may be worse for the environment than gas"

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I am one of the authors of the study. I have also been reading this site for years, and so I am willing to respond to some questions about what we do, and not do, in our study.

Thanks for responding!
A couple questions:

1. Why use electricity data from 2010-2012? (If this is all that was available, what is your impression on what current electricity sources may skew the paper)

2. Why the bother of finding the "marginal" electricity and its pollutants vs the average electricity pollutants and how does this affect the outcome?

~Greg
 
Another important issue is how clean the "grid of the future" will be. We actually do an analysis of this, to the extent that we can with our data. For the grid of the future,
we (conceptually) wave a magic wand and turn every coal fired power plant into a natural gas fired power plant. For the gas car of the future, we use the current Toyota Prius.

In our basic comparison between the gas car of today and an EV powered by the grid of today, the EV is slightly dirtier on average over the whole country ($750 more damages over the driving life
of the cars). Comparing the gas car of the future and the EV powered by the grid of the future, the EV is slightly cleaner on average over the whole country ($1000 fewer damages over the life of the cars.)
 
In our basic comparison between the gas car of today and an EV powered by the grid of today, the EV is slightly dirtier on average over the whole country ($750 more damages over the driving life
of the cars). Comparing the gas car of the future and the EV powered by the grid of the future, the EV is slightly cleaner on average over the whole country ($1000 fewer damages over the life of the cars.)
Imagine how much that would change if you had used actual data about full emissions (well to wheels) instead of the ones you did that ignored the fact that fuel is extracted, transported, refined, transported, and dispensed...

Your numbers are meaningless when you ignore large portions of the situation that bias your study in a very large way.

Without the bias you added, it would read that using the grid of today, the EV is significantly cleaner than the ICE of today, and using the grid of tomorrow that only improves further.
 
Thanks for responding!
A couple questions:

1. Why use electricity data from 2010-2012? (If this is all that was available, what is your impression on what current electricity sources may skew the paper)

2. Why the bother of finding the "marginal" electricity and its pollutants vs the average electricity pollutants and how does this affect the outcome?

~Greg



1. That is the latest data that we have. But see my post about our grid of the future calculation.

2. Electric car adoption is still fairly low, so it seemed that the marginal approach was more appropriate. As we say in the paper, when adoption increases, then we will need to use a different
approach. I am not sure what the effects will be of using some other approach.
 
We've had similar discussions over at MNL. Here are a couple of points:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5494&p=274531&hilit=+Kintner#p274531
I'm going from memory here so follow the links and read for yourself. Using, old data (2009 or 2010 IIRC), this research suggested >70% of vehicles could be replaced with EVs without adding any additional generation capacity to the U.S. grid. Furthermore, they showed that EVs were cleaner than all ICE cars, except the 50+mpg Prius in a few regions. Again, this is OLD data and the grid is certainly cleaner now. I suggest you read the entire pdf presentation and if you need more info, go to www.pnnl.gov\publications, and put in Dr. Kintner-Meyer's name in the search box and read a few of his publications. Especially to the author of the Wash Examiner article, you should contact Dr. Kintner-Meyer and revisit some of these topics. I would certainly enjoy reading an update using TODAY's grid numbers instead of 5-6 years ago!

More discussion on smart-grid and such.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12534&p=290434&hilit=+PNNL#p290434
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5494&p=274676&hilit=+V2G#p274676
 
Looking at this at the most macro level possible, do you agree that all the externalities for both ICEs and EVs need to be considered in order to decide which is the greater contributor to pollution for the nation as a whole?

Yes, of course. But what we want to do in our paper is focus on air pollution, and in particular the differences from place to place. We found that EV's generally make local air cleaner, but also generally export air pollution to other places. Sometimes this second effect can dominate the first. I think this is an interesting finding.
 
Is there any sample calculations in the paper that I'm missing? I don't see anywhere that discloses the $ amounts used for each of the emissions besides CO2 = $35/ton. What are the $ values for NH3, PM2.5, SO2, NOX and VOCs? And what is the typical emissions of these for a coal or natural gas plant?

Also the table displaying the pollutants for the gas cars (Appendix Table 1) only shows 4 of the 6.

It would nice to see that math behind the analysis since we have seen this in other studies that only look at CO2 and usually brings out electrics on par or better that gas equivalents. Which pollutant starts to favor ICE's over BEV's?

Thanks,
~Greg
 
I am one of the authors of the study. I have also been reading this site for years, and so I am willing to respond to some questions about what we do, and not do, in our study.

In reading the comments, one thing that keeps coming up are the "life-cycle" externalities of gas vehicles and EV's (things like refining gas and mining coal).
We do not look at these in our study. Other studies have done this already. We are concerned with the effects of air pollution from smokestacks and tailpipes, and in particular how these effects vary from place
to place. In the paper we discuss a number of caveats to our study, and of course in this section we mention life-cycle externalities.

Refining gasoline requires quite a lot of electricity (~6kWh / gallon), which directly produces the air pollution your study is ostensibly concerned with via smokestacks. The Model S can drive about 20 miles on these 6kWh, with no additional emissions. The BMW 750i can drive about the same 20 miles on this refined gallon, with lots of extra emissions. I fail to see how this isn't a no-brainer in favor of EV's, but your study conveniently and completely ignores this factor.

It would also be interesting to see the study's results weighted by actual EV sales figures per state/county, to get a sense of how much "the average EV" is actually polluting vs ICE in practice. California currently accounts for nearly half of domestic Model S registrations. By contrast, there are very few Teslas in North Dakota.

In a nutshell, this study seems designed to cherry pick the most EV-averse statistics while ignoring the more EV-positive ones. Even so, the Model S manages to come out ahead of the BMW 750i overall, and very far ahead in states with a clean electric grid. (To say nothing of residential solar, which is also ignored.) Including caveats is really no excuse for publishing such an intentionally lopsided study.

Finally, it is misleading to compare the subsidy to the direct (current) environmental benefit [no pun intended], as if that is the sole reason for the subsidy. The purpose of the subsidy is to accelerate the transition to a cleaner transportation and domestic energy future, in which the environmental equation will be even more strongly shifted toward EV's than it is now.

My two cents. And kudos for joining the discussion here! I welcome the conversation.
 
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I may regret this, but here goes.

I am one of the authors of the study. I have also been reading this site for years, and so I am willing to respond to some questions about what we do, and not do, in our study.

In reading the comments, one thing that keeps coming up are the "life-cycle" externalities of gas vehicles and EV's (things like refining gas and mining coal).
We do not look at these in our study. Other studies have done this already. We are concerned with the effects of air pollution from smokestacks and tailpipes, and in particular how these effects vary from place
to place. In the paper we discuss a number of caveats to our study, and of course in this section we mention life-cycle externalities.

I might also point out that we pay homage to Elon Musk in the very first sentence of the paper.

After reading your study "Measuring the Spatial Heterogeneity in EnvironmentalExternalities from Driving: A Comparison of Gasolineand Electric Vehicles", I feel the study validated applying the term "Spatial Heterogeneity" to energy production/consumption, but your second part, "A Comparison of Gasoline and Electric Vehicles", yields questionable value and actually derives some very poorly drawn conclusions because of the caveats you mention. The first three caveats you mention are some pretty major caveats and they limit the conclusions your study can make and also fuels misinformation in non scientific articles that will follow. You can't ignore the pollution it takes to get the gas into the gas tank and then totally focus on the pollution of one dirty source of electricity production that goes into charging a BEV. What if you compared Tailpipes to BEV's charged on PV panels or wind power? Besides, smokestacks are not sustainable and will be going away, as will tailpipes, so someday your study won't even make any sense, or will have to include definitions of what those antiquated terms even mean. :)
 
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Yes, of course. But what we want to do in our paper is focus on air pollution, and in particular the differences from place to place. We found that EV's generally make local air cleaner, but also generally export air pollution to other places. Sometimes this second effect can dominate the first. I think this is an interesting finding.

Yes, the long tailpipe theory: I breathe cleaner air in California driving my EV, but in some far off corner of the country, there's a bunch of power plants spewing out pollution to compensate -- and perhaps this pollution is actually greater than that generated by gasoline cars in some cases... but we'll never know the whole story, because you (actively?) chose to ignore oil refining & transportation infrastructure and focused just on the tailpipe!

So... Why structure it this way? (I have a theory that I'll not share here.)
 
Looking at it in terms of the effects on humans: which is easier to control, regulate, or modify - the output from a dozen smokestacks, or the output from 12 million tailpipes? And suppose we cut things down to 6 smokestacks with half of the 12M vehicles having no tailpipes, how does that compare? Going further, how about one smokestack and no tailpipes? Pipe dream? (pun intended). :wink:
 
Refining gasoline requires quite a lot of electricity (~6kWh / gallon), which directly produces the air pollution your study is ostensibly concerned with via smokestacks. The Model S can drive about 20 miles on these 6kWh, with no additional emissions. The BMW 750i can drive about the same 20 miles on this refined gallon, with lots of extra emissions. I fail to see how this isn't a no-brainer in favor of EV's, but your study conveniently and completely ignores this factor.

To be fair, that is 6kWh of energy/gallon, not just electricity. e.g. Heat from directly burning fuels. A direct comparison assumes you can convert all energy 100% to electricity, which you can't. But large-scale plants should still be able to get 50% efficiency from heat for electricity generation, which would still then vastly tilt the scale in favor of the E.V.


I may regret this, but here goes.

Welcome to the forum!You will find that facts get you very far on here. As long as you back up what you assert, and is open to new input, I'm sure the conversation will stay healthier than most other places you'll find online.
 
I've gone through the paper the first time, and here are some preliminary thoughts.

1) The paper says it uses gasoline vehicle emissions comes from the EPA Tier 2 emissions standards and the Argonne National Lab's GREET model. Under "Data sources for emissions of gasoline cars" the paper makes it clear that the authors use the EPA Tier 2 emissions standards to only model tailpipe emissions of SO2, CO2, NOx, VOCs, and PM. The authors bother to use Argonne National Labs GREET model to augment VOC and PM2.5 from tires and brake wear, but very clearly ignores all upstream emissions from gasoline production. That's completely disingenuous considering the amount of effort going into modeling the electricity production side.

2) on the electricity production side, under "Emissions for Electric Vehicles" it is unclear to me how the authors modeled the increase in electricity usage. I understand that the authors grabbed hourly emissions profiles for various power plants and the hourly electricity consumption. However, for the increase in load, it is not clear how the authors modeled the variance between power sources as load in increased. From the equation, I think the authors assumed an even increase across all power plants which clearly is not the case. For example, there is a big difference if the increase in load comes from a natural gas peaker plant or a hydro plant versus a coal plant. Further, it appears that the model doesn't account for any situations where the power plant may be over-generating electricity already, which may be the case in super-off-peak times. In other words, a coal plant at 2am might be at the minimum 40% idle level and is already generating above the demand load at that time - which means any additional charging, up to the point where the coal plant needs to increase power levels does not generate any additional emissions. The paper also uses some assumptions on charging profiles with time of day, but I don't see where it has the range presented.

3) Treating all emissions linearly for "damage" seems to me to be a very big assumption. I haven't yet sorted through how the authors map emissions to $, but that seems to be an area where the assumptions can cause significant distortion to the results.

4) Also, the point of emissions and the coverage of the resulting cloud is interesting and deserves more attention. I have seen some studies, but I think they are not quite giving us an accurate picture of the benefits or detriments of shifting the point of origin of the emissions.

5) The overall concept of tailoring incentives to regions of the country is interesting, but I think is flawed from the outset. First, the power plant data is old and always in flux. The contribution to emissions from an EV therefore is always in flux with a potential for much more change than with a gasoline vehicle. Similarly with #4, moving the point of emissions, even if the overall emissions is higher for now might be worth it. Also, there may be small steps at the power plant side that (scrubbers for instance) that might change the emissions profile dramatically in an economical fashion. As a result, while a BEV sold today may have slightly worse emissions than the equivalent gasoline car, that may very well not be the case in just 1 or 2 years with increase in wind energy and the reduction of electricity use overall, which may help the existing nuclear and hydro sources cover more of our super-off-peak load.

I think the lack of upstream calculations ultimately dooms this paper to irrelevancy. It is interesting that this paper attempts to discuss hourly power production of electricity, but falls far short of providing the critical information on the capacities of super-off-peak power production with hydro, wind, and nuclear electricity production. I suspect that given what we know of charging, 95% of charging is done at off-peak, and for some, 99+% is done at super off peak. So the charging profiles are almost always wrong for Model S owners which represent the future BEVs (2017 onwards, the behavior and products will reflect a longer range, more like current Model S owners).
 
I may regret this, but here goes.

I am one of the authors of the study. I have also been reading this site for years, and so I am willing to respond to some questions about what we do, and not do, in our study.

In reading the comments, one thing that keeps coming up are the "life-cycle" externalities of gas vehicles and EV's (things like refining gas and mining coal).
We do not look at these in our study. Other studies have done this already. We are concerned with the effects of air pollution from smokestacks and tailpipes, and in particular how these effects vary from place
to place
. In the paper we discuss a number of caveats to our study, and of course in this section we mention life-cycle externalities.

I might also point out that we pay homage to Elon Musk in the very first sentence of the paper.


As others have done, I laud your forthrightness in openly addressing this forum and its members. A significant concern I have with your paper comes from some of its methodology or, I should say, some assumptions you appear to have taken as axiomatic. For, while you write above that which I have emboldened, on p 6 of the paper we read:

Gasoline vehicles cause damages through tailpipe emissions and electric vehicles cause damages though smokestack emissions from the electricpower plants that charge them. We assume that
the damage functions are linear.

Yet we know from many studies, none of which, to my understanding, ever have been challenged, that the concentrated urban emissions representing vehicular exhausts cause significantly more externalities - primarily in the form of human respiratory ailments - than do the smokestack emissions of power plants, most of which are located sufficiently far from population centers as to avoid such problems. I aver the emboldened assumption not only is dangerous, but presents a crippling flaw to the remainder of your argument: you must, inter alia, separately assess the externalities of these two very different emissions.
 
Havent read the paper yet, but have read the comments in here. Without using the most up to date electric generation statistics the study is out of date before it was even published. Seems like they used data from 2010 which from what I can find had the US generating 45% of electricity from coal. That is now down to under 39% and dropping. Coal plants are closing left and right and the dirtiest ones are going first.
 
A lot to respond to! About the comments from GregRF and ReddyLeaf. Take a look at Table 5 in our paper. On average in the US, electric cars cause 2.5 cents
per mile damages, of which 1.62 cents come from local pollutants (S02, NOx, etc) and the rest from the global pollutant (C02). On average in the US, gas cars
cause 2.0 cents per mile damages, of which 0.54 come from local pollutants and the rest from C02.

So we found that, on average, electric cars are better on C02 and worse on local pollution. But again, our paper is really about how much this
can vary from place to place. In the best county for EVs they only cause 0.67 cents per mile damages. In the best county for gas vehicles, they cause 1.13 cents per mile
damages. The worst county for EV's is a bit worse than the worst county for gas vehicles (4.72 vs 4.47)
 
The study looks carefully done to me, but there is one sanity check that it does not seem to pass. That is, we know that a Model S uses about half the energy of a Prius, based on EPA MPGe ratings. Those ratings are based on energy at the pump or wall socket, and not on the thermal energy needed to generate the energy delivered to the wall socket. Allowing for that efficiency factor being a similar factor of two, it seems like the total energy used by a Model S is pretty much comparable with that used by a Prius, if we ignore energy used to pump and refine fossil fuels or assume that is comparable for the gas pump and the power plant delivery truck.

Now is it really true that a large electric power plant is no more efficient at limiting emissions per unit energy delivered than a small engine operated on a moving vehicle? That surprises me, if true...
 
Given the paper is based on tailpipe vs powerplant (and doesn't highlight that when presenting to the media), I feel safe to throw this in the trash pile.

A refinery is akin to the "powerplant" for gasoline (separation from general public, distribution of end product is similar). And in an analysis I did back in 2011, I found a refinery purchases electricity roughly 0.3kWh/gallon from 2009 data, and feedstocks put into a refinery can generate roughly 2-3kWh in 40% efficiency case (manually I did the math and found up to 1kWh for efficiency numbers I could find).

Depending on which assumptions you use, you can get from a 5-40% skewing in the results from this factor (side note: ANL GREET puts gasoline upstream at 26% in terms of GHG and 31% in terms of energy use):

kWh/galMPG (ICE)kWh/100mi (EV)kWh/100mi (refining)percentage
1504025.00%
325301240.00%
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-gasoline/page12?p=90744&viewfull=1#post90744

So this factor is way too important to ignore completely.