Ask Me Anything -- Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman Defends Picking the Benz

[spentan]

and to add another odd nitpick, the 17" screen comment, about it being there and always on, you can turn it off if you want to BTW. completely black. can you do that in the S550, turn off all the lights on the center crap?

Yes, you can. Not sure why you'd want to though.

 

[ken830]

Like many of you, I feel that Jonny made made the wrong call on this. But none of that matters to me. What matters is that I could not have afforded an S-Class (and I wouldn't want one), whereas I could relatively-easily afford a Model S (non-perf 85kWh with some options) due to the much lower cost of ownership.

I just wish I could afford two Model S's.. That way, I could drive one every day (my wife drives it during the week) so that I don't have to spend an extra 25-minutes twice a week to get gas, pay $60+ for a fill-up, and do it in the rain/wind/hot sun.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Yes, you can. Not sure why you'd want to though.

exactly. why was that a point included in the review? the only reason I'd turn off my center screen is to sleep in the car with the heater on. you can't do that in a S550 but I'd imagine not many buyers of a car in that price range would want to camp in their car.

 

[artsci]

Even though I could afford one, there's no way in hell I'd buy an S-Class. Not only are Mercedes, in my view, the worst of conspicuous consumption, I hate the incredibly heavy-handed Tuetonic styling as well as a drive train, as good as it may be, that represents the technology of the past. The reason Jonny likes the interior are exactly the reasons why I despise it.

 

[CalDreamin]

It's interesting that an American car reviewer found the current MB S 550 to be better than the Tesla Model S P85+, yet the German magazine Auto Zeitung rated the Tesla Model S P85+ to be better than same MB S-class (the MB W222 S 500 in Europe is the same as the S 550 in the USA).

Both reviews noted the superior electronic driver aids and seat comfort of the S-Class. But Auto Zeitung found the P85+ to have superior efficiency, responsiveness, smoothness and power delivery. Perhaps due to a stronger emphasis on which is the better driver's car, Auto Zeitung ranked the Tesla as the overall winner.

 

[Canuck]

Even though I could afford one, there's no way in hell I'd buy an S-Class. Not only are Mercedes, in my view, the worst of conspicuous consumption, I hate the incredibly heavy-handed Tuetonic styling as well as a drive train, as good as it may be, that represents the technology of the past. The reason Jonny likes the interior are exactly the reasons why I despise it.

+1 I feel the exact same way.

 

[Crispix]

This thread is doing pretty well considering comparisons like this tend to turn into religious wars. I love my Model S, but I think Jonny has convinced me his reasons for picking the Mercedes are justified. Before anyone goes off the rails on me or uses the dreaded "T" word (troll!) . . . consider the following:

1. The Model S isn't for everyone. It just isn't. Some people just aren't that into acceleration and big screens, and don't really care enough about EV vs ICE to make that a factor. For some people, it's all about features and the overall luxury driving experience.

2. The S550 is a fantastic car for all the reasons in the review. It has features that blow the Model S away. Example: I once swore to myself I'd never buy another car without air conditioned seats or adaptive cruise control. Yeah, I broke that promise, but I sure do miss those features. The MS has a spartan interior. Yes, we're all ok with that or we wouldn't have bought one. The S550 is a marvel of luxury inside and out. The MS also has features that blow the S550 away (the screen, the interface, the luck dragon), so it comes down to personal preference. I can see why, after checking all the boxes and comparing them side-by-side, some people are justified in picking the S550 over the Model S and I'm ok with calling it a logical and objective choice.

Full disclosure: I used to drive a Benz before I turned it in for my Tesla. I miss my old car, but only a little. The MS is still my first choice, and I can justify my choice as well as everyone else here, but I understand why some or even many people would chose a S550 instead and call it "better".

The fact that we're even having this discussion -- and the author has taken the time to come on this forum to talk about it -- is a testament to how much the new kid on the block rocks. That the MS in its first model year compares to a luxury sedan with a such long history of being top-of-the-line is more than enough to convince me that while this discussion is interesting, the fact that we're having this discussion is even more interesting.

Just don't get me started on iPhone vs Android, Mac vs Windows, or Pliny the Elder vs Pure Hoppiness.

 

[dsm363]

This really does seem like a Mac vs PC kind of argument. Excellent analogy.

 

[Grendal]

Even though I could afford one, there's no way in hell I'd buy an S-Class.

I can't afford either car but I will be buying a Model S next year because I consider it important enough to justify the extravagance.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

All things being equal, I chose the car that takes my breath away every time I walk up to it.

 

[gnelson]

I actually had no issues with the review although what he valued is less important to me. His ignorant statements in this Forum devalued whatever he professed in the review because he diminished his credibility here.

 

[pgiralt]

Since you seem to drive about 250 miles a day and average around 16mpg is seems in the S550, what would your annual fuel costs be between the two cars? There are many aspects to what makes a car 'better'. You just seem to have set the value higher in some areas that others here have which is fine. There is no one best car in the world for every person anyway.

I was thinking the same thing. If someone really drives 250 miles a day (let's say just weekdays - so 250 * 5 * 52) that's 65,000 miles a year. At 16 mpg is 4062 gallons of gas. Let's just say $4 per gallon for a yearly fuel cost of over $16,000. Those same miles driven in a Model S assuming 330 Wh/m would be 21,450 kWh of energy and add an extra 15% for charging inefficiencies to make it 24,667. If you live somewhere like I do where electricity is between 9 and 10 cents per kWh, That's about $2500 per year. Even if you live in CA and have to pay 30 cents/kWh, that's still about $7500. The average cost of electricity in the US is 12 cents/kWh, so on average, it will cost about $3000 per year in energy cost. This means that the S550 would be $13,000 more expensive to operate per year! This doesn't even include all the oil changes and maintenance you'd need to keep that S-class running as well. For someone who drives that much, the Model S (even the fully loaded P85+ in this review) is significantly less expensive than the S-Class. If you were to drive the car for 8 years, you'd spend $100,000 more in energy cost for the S-class than you would for the Model S!

 

[Beavis]

Thanks for the review, Jonny. I watched the video and it did nothing to convince me that the S550 is a better car than the S. You put a higher value on features of the Merc that the S doesn't measure up to, like the interior with its disco lights and that rear seatbelt extension thingy. Yes, the S550 has some active safety features that some S owners complain about it not having but I would guess that the owners here overwhelmingly don't put a lot of value on the features of the Merc that you think are special. Meanwhile, you don't value features of the S that Tesla owners value religiously. We consider these features to be game changing. After owning an S, we see the future and it doesn't run on gasoline. To never go to a gas station and wake up each morning with a full tank is a revolution. To silently launch forward like being catapulted off an aircraft carrier always takes my breath away. These are areas where the S550 cannot ever come close to the S.

PS, that range anxiety argument is silly. Seriously, you are talking to people who own the car and know more about it than you do. People ask me all the time, "How long does it take to charge?" My answer always is, "Less time than it takes me to fill up at the gas station." The reason is that I charge at home while I sleep. Charging takes none of my time. Zero minutes. I wake up and I have a full tank. That's it.

 

[ecarfan]

Even if you live in CA and have to pay 30 cents/kWh,

@pgiralt, excellent analysis. The multi-year fuel cost of cars like the S550 is staggering. I just wanted to point out that in California an EV owner would use the time of use utility plan and charge at night so they would rarely be paying the $0.30/kWh rate. I pay around $0.11.

Johnny really blew it with his range anxiety statement. He failed to talk to Tesla owners who had significant ownership time under their belts, or if he did talk to them he neglected to absorb their opinions. He focused on his own uninformed "range anxiety" after spending track time with the car (which 99.99% of actual owners never do) and then started out on a 45 mile drive with a battery at less then 1/3 of a full charge.

 

[JST]

@pgiralt, excellent analysis. The multi-year fuel cost of cars like the S550 is staggering. I just wanted to point out that in California an EV owner would use the time of use utility plan and charge at night so they would rarely be paying the $0.30/kWh rate. I pay around $0.11.

Johnny really blew it with his range anxiety statement. He failed to talk to Tesla owners who had significant ownership time under their belts, or if he did talk to them he neglected to absorb their opinions. He focused on his own uninformed "range anxiety" after spending track time with the car (which 99.99% of actual owners never do) and then started out on a 45 mile drive with a battery at less then 1/3 of a full charge.

I don't think it's fair to call it range anxiety--not in a car with as much battery as the Tesla. In 6 months so far I have never had even the slightest concern about having enough charge to get where I need to go.

But I do think there is a legitimate point to be made about range *limitation.* We all know that traveling in a Tesla brings with it special planning needs. You have to think about where and how you will refuel on a trip far more carefully than you do with a gas car.

Often that's easy, or easy enough. And Superchargers are making it easier every day. But sometimes it's not--case in point is the conference I am attending this weekend, which is being held at a hotel on the very edge of my car's range and that doesn't have good charging options (or, at least, can't communicate well about whether they have 240v plugs and, if so , what kind).

So if you are a car nerd or an EV enthusiast or an early adopter, you put up with that. But I take the point that some people won't want to. Some people will say, "bah, it's not luxurious to have to worry about the logistics of charging." And I sympathize with that. To the extent that's what Lieberman was focusing on, I can't disagree with him.

 

[dsm363]

So if you are a car nerd or an EV enthusiast or an early adopter, you put up with that. But I take the point that some people won't want to. Some people will say, "bah, it's not luxurious to have to worry about the logistics of charging." And I sympathize with that. To the extent that's what Lieberman was focusing on, I can't disagree with him.

I agree. For him to simply declare the 'better' care because he drives 300 miles a day which with Superchargers would still be possible is misguided. He should have said ' since I drive 300 miles a day in areas with no Supercharger this car can't work for me yet. For many others though, they should seriously consider this car'.

 

[tomas]

I don't think it's fair to call it range anxiety--not in a car with as much battery as the Tesla. In 6 months so far I have never had even the slightest concern about having enough charge to get where I need to go.

But I do think there is a legitimate point to be made about range *limitation.* We all know that traveling in a Tesla brings with it special planning needs. You have to think about where and how you will refuel on a trip far more carefully than you do with a gas car.

Often that's easy, or easy enough. And Superchargers are making it easier every day. But sometimes it's not--case in point is the conference I am attending this weekend, which is being held at a hotel on the very edge of my car's range and that doesn't have good charging options (or, at least, can't communicate well about whether they have 240v plugs and, if so , what kind).

So if you are a car nerd or an EV enthusiast or an early adopter, you put up with that. But I take the point that some people won't want to. Some people will say, "bah, it's not luxurious to have to worry about the logistics of charging." And I sympathize with that. To the extent that's what Lieberman was focusing on, I can't disagree with him.

JST, Mr. Lieberman's range anxiety comments were not that well informed and I don't think he was focusing on "normal" MS charging considerations for long trips that you and I deal with when planning a trip. He was focused on day-to-day driving activities of less than 200 miles. They appear to me to be gut reaction to the same issues that caused the Broder problem and various Autoweek misinformation: reporter with insufficient charging infrastructure at home, insufficient experience with car and ability to judge range, and taking the rated range projection on the dash too literally. And, the conclusion drawn was that the MS is only suitable for people with short commutes, etc... which might put off many prospective buyers who actually would be PERFECTLY HAPPY with the car.

The car is OUTSTANDING for anyone who drives under 250 miles on normal day and has sufficient home charging infrastructure and savvy, and wastes NO TIME on fuel stops in that scenario. It is true that in event of road trip over 200 miles, MS owner has to do some planning, may compromise route, and may have charging time in excess of ICE refueling times, which can be minimized if combined with overnight stops and meals.

I do not know why so many of the automotive press take off in the car without taking time to learn some of this in advance, but it seems to be recurring theme. Maybe they are just busy guys like the rest of us, thinking "see car, drive car, write article". Fortunately, it is not affecting Tesla's ability to sell all the cars they can make, and as they get more pervasive, the realities of driving range will become better understood.

 

[artsci]

I do not know why so many of the automotive press take off in the car without taking time to learn some of this in advance, but it seems to be recurring theme.

I think it's really because they're not sufficiently conscientious to have done their homework before driving the car. It is an electric car after all and you would think they'd not assume that all is the same as with an ICE. Jonny certainly has no excuses, as he was familiar with the car. But his review suggests otherwise.

 

[dsm363]

That's the confusing part. How could you review this car for the award and over the last year not discover that charging on a 120V outlet is slow. He said he was SHOCKED! to find that out the next morning.

 

[heems]

Better is irrelevant. One could argue (8+ pages) that the Mars rover is a better car. After all it works on Mars. Better means ****.

Here is the question: Jonny get your checkbook. Gather your family (if you have one), your w-2, your bills, your hopes and dreams. You are told you must go buy a car today. You are given only two choices. A model S (any version and options you want) or w222 (any options you want). Given all that you know about the two cars which company are you going to write your check to?

I know your answer (based on what you have posted so far). You are not going to give a hoot that some guy in China may or may not be buckling up while sitting in the back seat. You are not going to care about how lexus is death scared. You are going to care about the value for your dollar given all that you believe in life. You will choose the model s.


And that is all that matters. Like I said better means ****.