Audi Q6 e-tron EV

[thegruf]

@AnxietyRanger - you distinguish Audi from VAG.

This is not the case. Audi are simply the premium brand of Volkswagen.
Patently obviously with new technology and limited supply you target the premium sector first.
This is not "audi" but VAG group strategy.

You also fail to mention MB who at least have made the strategic decision to plan a Gigafactory.to support their move to BEV and I suspect will be ahead of the other two primary German manufacturers in the BEV race.

As I mentioned above China is a huge factor too that I think is much underestimated.
The Chinese government have made a massive pledge toward ZEVs and a very aggressive timescale too. If you think China are going to let all the batteries made there head off to ROW think again. The Chinese have endlessly made the west look stupid and the next phase of this quite possibly will be the very rapidly go the the bottom of the list of major per capita polluters because they have the manufacturing capacity to do so and the strength of political will if the choose to do so. China's automotive industry is just coming of age. Yes, there will be casualties with traditional auto makers.

One of the greatest issues that Tesla will have in the short term is established manufacturers making very credible and desirable BEVs but at a loss that will be concealed within group profits. A small amount of sales proportionately for a large manufacturer can do Tesla a lot of damage in what is still at this time a finite market.

One reason Audi get vitriol more so that other manufacturers here is their repeated false claims of upcoming vehicles which is blatantly an attempt to defer prospective Tesla customers to mythical Audi sales. One day it will be real, just not today, or tomorrow or ...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@thegruf

Any distinguishing I make between Audi and Volkswage is intentional - I am fully aware of their corporate co-existence, they are brands and the brands are sub-organizations of the same group (under Volkswagen name), but also on how the group positions certain advancements within. I am also aware of the battery supply limitation argument (as well as price) and reasoning behind focusing on larger premium cars first. These are all true, in many ways, of course, and I am not disputing them.

Still, Audi's self-driving and BEV projects are in many ways more their own than they are of Volkswagen brand's, though all share results and platforms in many cases. Volkswagen is not a bit player in BEVs in the general sense either, but Audi (and to a lesser extent Porsche) are the tip of the spear for the group on this. You are not disputing that, of course, I am just explaining that IMO it makes a difference beyond just "group-think".

Audi is R&D wise the tip of the spear for the Volkswagen group for these technologies. The way the group develops its products and its platforms means that what Audi does on the high-end, is not always all that related to what the Volkswagen brand does (Audi's low-end, on the other hand, is).

Equally, any failure to mention Mercedes on my part is intentional - I do consider them strategically ahead of BMW on BEVs (and do acknowledge their long research history on alternative propulsion), but significantly behind Audi (and Volkswagen) in general in the execution.

My point is: Out of all the old premium brands, I believe Audi is the one that is taking BEVs and autonomous most seriously. Hence I find it inaccurate that so many seem to be dismissing Audi's efforts on TMC. I think there are much better candidates for dismissal, is all.

 

[techmaven]

When you start to really put together the specs that Audi has leaked about the Q6 e-tron, the picture that emerges paints it as another Model Y competitor at a Model X price built in limited quantities.

First, the dimensions of 4880mm (192”) in length, 1930mm (76”) in width and 1540mm (60.6”) in height from: Audi Q6 e-tron quattro confirmed for production | Autocar and the fact that it is a 2 row CUV, not a 3 row CUV is a Model Y size, not a Model X size. It is longer than a Model 3, but it has a very long hood. It is 6” shorter than an X, and less wide than even a 3. I expect the interior room to be comparable in length and width to a Model 3, but with more headroom. Seating capacity for 5, but the 5th seat is more compromised than the Model 3. The Model X is a 7 seater.

Base price is expected to be around $75,000. That’s Model X territory.

Range for the Audi A6 e-tron is likely similar to the I-Pace at the low 200’s even with a big > 90 kWh battery on the EPA tests rather than NEDC.

When this vehicle launches, the CCS L3 charging network will still be nascent, especially in the U.S. VW’s penalty money will be putting in a network about 25% the size of Tesla’s Superchargers by mid-2019.

Production is expected in the “5 figures” but that could be 15,000 or 95,000... but given the constraints on LG and Samsung SDI, closer to 15,000. The I-Pace is contracted for 13,000 for its first year of production.

It is good that automakers are starting to compete, but we should be clear eyed about the competition.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@techmaven First things first, I completely agree Jaguar I-Pace is a low-volume entry, contracted to a third-party.

Even though I want one (seems like a good product for me), I am very clear eyed about what the Jaguar I-Pace is. I'm not sure if I'd call it a compliance car - since it aims for a wide launch and an EV future for the brand - and it is prettier and more functional than the old Mercedes Benz B class or the Mitsubishi Outlander electrics, but still the I-Pace is a low-volume gimmick really like the Merc and the Bishi.

But as for Audi, I don't agree with the overall sentiment of grouping Audi together with these other bitplayers. Be it on BEV or be it on autonomous. That, I guess, is my point to the TMC crowd - I recommend taking Audi more seriously than grouping them together with others who are just waking up to the threat of Tesla.

The Volkswagen group may have been hurting Audi's ambitions over the years (the story of the Audi R8 e-tron is very sad IMO), but they have made genuine advancements in both BEVs and autonomous within that part of the group. They are also the closest to shipping these to customers in the premium segment, out of the old manufacturers.

All the hubris of the past years have created this sort of echo chamber on TMC and Tesla circles where nobody else is doing the right things or taking these things seriously where Tesla is leading. And I think that is false. The reality is much more nuanced than that and IMO if we really want to be "clear eyed", we need to see those nuances.

 

[lux_cars]

After looking at the new A8, I'm pretty excited about the e-tron Quattro.

I will be ordering one for a family member as long as Audi doesn't stray too far from it's guided pricing: similar to a well-spec'd A6 (A6 Prestige trim starts at $61,600). Something in the $60's would be reasonable for an all electric larger than Q5 but smaller than Q7 SUV.

Build Your Own Custom Audi A6 | Audi USA

I would get them a Model S or Model X but Tesla either needs to be price these close to A6/E-Class or make them as luxurious as S-Class/A8/Range Rover for the current prices they are charging.

 

[30seconds]

The issue with Audi is that they have been promising EVs for years while 1. not delivering a single one and 2. intentionally breaking emissions rules with software tricks for their diesels. And now the best that they promise to do is to shoehorn a EV drivetrain into a ICE vehicle while lying about the performance stats.

BMW and Mercedes have actually sold EVs even if they are confused to where the market is going.

Plus Audi is caught in the whole VAG mess which means upper mgmt turnover, ongoing investigations, financial hardships and a general level of uncertainty.

Or you can believe that VAG is sitting on a secret battery gigafactory as well as breakthroughs in EV drivetrain efficiency.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The issue with Audi is that they have been promising EVs for years while 1. not delivering a single one and 2. intentionally breaking emissions rules with software tricks for their diesels.

While I agree overall, Audi did sell some Audi R8 e-tronis at million a pop. Less than one hundred. I know that means nothing, but it does tell of a development past into BEVs at least. They did not outsource a drivetrain to Tesla like Mercedes did, they built their own...

BMW and Mercedes have actually sold EVs even if they are confused to where the market is going.

BMW and Mercedes have sold compliance cars. They haven't really shown the seriousness as Audi is now doing. I don't mean to dismiss the i3, by the way, I am just of the opinion that BMW dropped the ball after that and are not following suit with a serious next step as fast as Audi is. Had BMW really taken that i5 seriously, my opinion might be different.

Look, my point about Audi is not the past, but a serious analysis of what I think is in their immediate future. IMO Audi are the ones coming out with the first serious, premium BEVs of the big premium makers - as well as leading the autonomous charge of the Germans. For these reasons I genuinely think Audi is currenly (one of the) best positioned at answering the areas where the Tesla narrative is strong.

This IMO is a trap TMC falls all too easily and all too often: looking at the past as evidence of future, when we really should look seriously at the companies and what we can learn of their efforts, and then judge what they are doing and when. I chalk this partially up to people not really knowing the German companies well in the U.S. perhaps, but it really takes more than just the usual talking points to analyze this...

It means nothing that Audi doesn't have much of a BEV history, if they are the one who are the first after Tesla to come up with a serious BEV future. And I believe they are best positioned for that based on closely following the company for a long time.

 

[techmaven]

But as for Audi, I don't agree with the overall sentiment of grouping Audi together with these other bitplayers. Be it on BEV or be it on autonomous.

Audi is part of Volkswagen. They were part of the emissions scandal. This is corporate thievery and deception on par with Enron. Only because they are significantly government owned that they are not in danger of bankruptcy. And the German government refuses extradition so the US cannot get justice from the German executives that went forward with this scandal. Any Americans should think twice, or three times or more about buying any VW Group product.

LG's new plant in Poland and Samsung SDI's new plant in Hungary is a drop in the ocean. The Renault Zoe and new Leaf will soak up a lot of the capacity as well as BMW 's PHEVs. The SK Innnovation expansion to 4 GWh just isn't that much either. The Audi Q6 e-tron simply won't have much economy of scale, even if it is built in Chevy Bolt levels. At this point, anything with Audi is a show me first in production form, but even then, I think many of us should have them in the penalty box for a while.

If Audi's autonomous effort was all that, why are they relying on Mobileye's EyeQ4 for most of the heavy lifting for their upcoming autonomous A8? Even then, they won't have the data validation done yet. And it has 1/5th the computation power of Tesla's AP2 hardware.

Spend any time reading the details of the VW Group diesel emissions scandal, like this one:

As Volkswagen Pushed to Be No. 1, Ambitions Fueled a Scandal

The audacity to deceive and keep on lying is breathtaking. I don't think any VW Group products should be sold in the US for a period of time. It isn't fair to other automakers. And given that isn't going to happen, it is up to us consumers to make this choice. And I was originally looking into the Audi A3 e-tron and VW e-Golf.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Audi is part of Volkswagen. They were part of the emissions scandal..

Yes, they were. Their bad.

Only because they are significantly government owned that they are not in danger of bankruptcy

I'm not sure if they ever were in any danger on bankruptcy (clearly they have not been), but I agree a big part of my confidence on why they never would be was due to their state government link. To understand Volkswagen is to understand Germany. BMW can fail, Volkswagen, not so much.

It isn't fair to other automakers.

There are plenty of investigations in Europe on-going that suggest other manufactures were in on similar schemes. Never OK, nor am I excusing any of that. But I do consider it irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

The Audi Q6 e-tron simply won't have much economy of scale, even if it is built in Chevy Bolt levels.

We shall see. To me it looks like the first premium large-battery car to follow Tesla and as such highly relevant to anyone interested in BEVs. Dismissing Audi seems odd to me in this context.

If Audi's autonomous effort was all that, why are they relying on Mobileye's EyeQ4 for most of the heavy lifting for their upcoming autonomous A8?

What is wrong with that? Components are one part of autonomous. Tesla uses stuff (including code) from Nvidia. At this rate Audi is slated to be the first Level 3 car on the market. Nothing to sniff at.

 

[thegruf]

@Anxietyanger - ok we all get it - you're a die hard Audi fan and will hear no ill of them.
I don't think anybody is dismissing them, just naturally sceptical after so many failed promises to date and a deliberate campaign of attempting to get Tesla buyers to hold out for a mythical Audi offering.

imo opinion MB will be leading the German charge, others will follow.
MB are quietly putting the right things in the right places to succeed, quite possibly benefitting from their experience with their historical Tesla association.

fwiw - I am not an Audi fan. I detest the fraudulent practices they undertook. I owned 3 Audis in the past, nice cars but all had significant probems and their dealers were absolutely shite and a bunch of liars. No f*ing way I would go back to that bunch of crooks. I just despair that the world is so forgiving of such corporate fraud and malpractice, this is exactly the wrong face of globalised corporate power.

Personal rant over; All the german companies will get there eventually, Germany has mandated ZEVs so they all have to, and no way will Germany let any of them fail, irrespective of so called EU limitations on state support.

As for L3 autonomy in the upcoming A8 - let me guess - only on very select and perfectly marked roads in ideal conditions. Tesla in the meantime now have huge fleet experience of real world conditions and can (mostly) cope will all sorts of real world scenarios that I expect the Audi will not even attempt. MB and others are bring out similar systems too, so if nothing else the competition is hotting up which can only be to our benefit.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Anxietyanger - ok we all get it - you're a die hard Audi fan and will hear no ill of them.

Why the strawman?

I have no problem with your opinion that MB might lead the Germans on this. I don't agree, but I can see the argument. My opinion on Audi has nothing to do with being a fan, more about following them closely. My personal like at the moment is more the Jaguar I-Pace - and I had no problem admitting that's a low-volume gimmick...

I don't see why you need to twist my words. Audi was part of the VW scam and that's on them. I just don't consider it relevant to this thread - or if I did, I would consider it a reason why Audi is now actually moving faster in BEVs, not slower.

My genuine analysis is that of the premium brands the one coming next after Tesla is Audi in BEVs and autonomous.

 

[lux_cars]

While the emissions cheating scandal is reprehensible and justice should be persued, taking a forward looking view on this, Audi does seem to be seriously committed to BEVs this time and has plans to launch serious BEV vehicles and not compliance cars over the coming years starting later this year or earlier next. This should surely help the cause of BEVs.

I don't have a strong opinion on Mercedes vs Audi in terms of BEV as both to me seem to be pursuing BEVs seriously. I am a little disappointed that BMW though won't have a serious electric vehicle soon.

 

[tescroft]

This thing is nothing worth waiting for. It looks ugly and will be very expensive, feature-adjusted more expensive than an X today. It will be a compliance car. They don't even target 6 figure sales as Tesla will reach soon with the X. And Audi doesn't have a good charging network. Forget about it.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I think it will be quite popular in Norway at least. It looks like it will be a bit cheaper and smaller than the Model X, but you can have a roof box and like the Model X, it will be able to tow. The biggest downside is that it can't supercharge. You will have to rely on a non-existent network of 150 kW CCS chargers.

When the CCS chargers are in place, a few years from now, I think the Audi e-tron will be quite competitive. Not everyone wants a huge car like the Model X, and the interior might be a bit better than the Model X. On the other hand, the Model X will likely have better autonomy, some better tech and longer range.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

While the emissions cheating scandal is reprehensible and justice should be persued, taking a forward looking view on this, Audi does seem to be seriously committed to BEVs this time and has plans to launch serious BEV vehicles and not compliance cars over the coming years starting later this year or earlier next. This should surely help the cause of BEVs.

I don't have a strong opinion on Mercedes vs Audi in terms of BEV as both to me seem to be pursuing BEVs seriously. I am a little disappointed that BMW though won't have a serious electric vehicle soon.

Very nice post. Thank you.

I agree Mercedes is taking things more seriously than BMW has. Too bad the promising in itself iAdventure at BMW ended up such a separate and dead-ended project there. Had they been serious, they could have accelerated out of that faster.

My opinion on Audi is based on the belief that they are taking the e-tron seriously. Finally. And made the decision to take it seriously before BMW and Mercedes, so they seem poised to get there faster.

Perhaps exactly because of the dieselgate...

 

[WarpedOne]

based on the belief that they are taking the e-tron seriously

Fool me once ...

 

[thegruf]

I suspect we're all debating on the same side of the fence really.

It is a fact the Germans (and Jaguar) are coming with both EVs and Autonomous.
Quite who gets there first is somewhat immaterial.
Any volumes they state will inevitably be complete BS at this stage.

The world will be heavily battery constrained probably at least for the next decade.
Tesla probably have a 5+ year lead in compteitively priced volume battery supply, maybe 10 year.

The traditional automakers are not so much worried about building the cars, they are desperately working out how to do it profitably.
In the early years at least these models will ALL be low volume to them.
Low volume screams high markups (sic Tesla prices) OR concealing losses in the wider figures.
They WILL undercut Tesla as the are desperate to weaken Tesla at their own expense as they can afford to.
In spite of this Tesla will continue to succeed.

There are very good reasons Tesla 400,000 pre-orders on the Model 3.

There are very good reasons Audi doesn't.

My conscience will not forgive VAG/Audi for polluting our cities and never buy VAG/Audi again.


Bottom line Elon's stated intention was to get the world off fossil fueled transport.
He and Tesla have led the charge by demonstrating that BEVs can work and be profitable.
Looks ever increasingly like he has swung the pendulum in the right direction.

Wow, just wow how one person can achieve such a thing.

 

[lux_cars]

This thing is nothing worth waiting for. It looks ugly and will be very expensive, feature-adjusted more expensive than an X today. It will be a compliance car. They don't even target 6 figure sales as Tesla will reach soon with the X. And Audi doesn't have a good charging network. Forget about it.

I'm not downplaying either dieselgate or the magnitude of the change Tesla has brought about in the auto industry, but VW, of which Audi is a part, will launch 30 new electric vehicles by 2025 and is targeting 25% of its sales to be electric by then. At current production levels of 10+ million, that would be more than 2.5 million electric vehicles a year. That's nothing to sneeze it.

 

[Spidy]

My conscience will not forgive VAG/Audi for polluting our cities and never buy VAG/Audi again.

I feel more threatened by Tesla's Autopilot marketing and implementation...
Im 421-PS-Tesla: Freihändig-Fahrschule im selbstfahrenden Auto

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Fool me once ...

Fair enough.

I feel the same way about many things Tesla...

We shall see.