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Audio: Sound System Quality?

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You're right Larry, 5.1 discrete music sources (SACD/DVD-A) put much more emphasis on the rear channels than movies or "ambient" processing algorythms do. However, I still think the rear speakers in the S should be ok for that purpose. I really do want to try 5.1 descrete! I've enjoyed many of the same discs as you have for multi-channel music albeit my "home theater" is my living room and nothing like yours, but the equipment's good and gets the job done . I know you're chomping at the bit to listen to Beatles LOVE.

Steve,

Please forgive a long-winded discussion regarding surround sound, but first let me issue a disclaimer: First and foremost my home theater is for movies, particularly action movies. I do not consider myself an audiophile, nor do I have a trained ear, but I do occasionally use the theater to listen to music, multichannel music. I never listen to two-channel music even if the source is two-channel I always upconvert it to 7.1 channels. From my experience there is a very good reason for this.

Two-channel music recordings require a fairly lively acoustic environment to sound its best. This is because for two-channel music ambiance, or the sense of spaciousness, is created by bouncing sounds off of the room boundaries. In contrast for multichannel recordings ambiance is actually deliberately recorded into the movie soundtracks, particularly the surround tracks. For multichannel recordings the practice is to ideally listen in a room with a moderate to a heavy amount of acoustic treatment to absorb reflections. This minimizes inteference with the direct sound on the recording. So my theater is a relatively "dead" acoustic environment. If I were to listen to two-channel music in my theater it would sound less appealing because it would sound unnaturally "dry". In my theater switching on surround processing to a two-channel recording restores a greater sense of spaciousness and always sounds better. Better yet 5.1 discrete music sources sound incrementally better than upconverting two-channel, but I found that depending on the quality of the mix upconverted two-channel can sound remarkably like a discrete multichannel recording. Your reference to the Beatles Love album is a great example.

On one embarrassing occasion a friend, who is a surround expert, suggested that I conduct an experiment to see how two-channel music sounds upconverted by Dolby. I told him that I only listened to discrete multichannel music in my theater because I felt it was clearly a superior experience. Anyway I went out and purchased the Beatles Love album because it was remastered in 5.1 and put it in my Universal Blu-ray player. The sound was fantastic as I expected. However, it turned out that the album came with a two-channel disc in addition to the multichannel disc, and guess what...I had inadvertently put in the two-channel disc. My system is setup to run Dolby if the source is less that 7.1, so what I was listening to was actually upconverted two-channel and the surround processing was so good I couldn't tell.

With this as background let me say that as much as I enjoy the Model S sound system I have not yet heard that improvement in spaciousness that I have experienced in my theater. However, I don't hear a loss in quality by switching on Dolby, what I hear is a reduction in the front soundstage volume as content is redirected to the surrounds. This lowering in front speaker volume may have led others to infer a loss of quality. Turning the volume up should restore the lost "quality". Right now I find that Dolby neither helps or hurts. I don't know the reason, perhaps it has to do with the small, and highly reflective acoustic environment of the cabin, or that the flavor of Dolby that Tesla has implemented is simply very basic, or of course both factors may be in play.

With regard to your remark that "5.1 discrete music sources (SACD/DVD-A) put much more emphasis on the rear channels than movies or "ambient" processing algorythms do.", I don't entirely agree. Yes, its true that surround processing such as Dolby ProLogic or Lexicon's Logic7 may extract content from the main channels and redirect them to the surrounds, but the degree in both discrete sources and upconverted two-channel really depends on the mix. The type of recording, music versus movies, doesn't generally govern how much sound is directed to the surrounds. It is true that in general movie directors like to focus the bulk of the sound in the front to support the on-screen action, but in my action movies my audience and I frequently find ourselves ducking as bullets zip by our ears from and to the rear of the room. So there's no general rule. Likewise in musical performances the bulk of content should generally be focused in the front soundstage, but of course there are notable exceptions.

It should be noted that recordings have two basic types of content. Ambient effects and direct sounds. Recording engineers have to consider the appropriateness of steering both types of sounds to the various channels. For ambient effects frequently all speakers are used at the same time. For direct sounds generally we expect them to follow the performers which are usually up front. One of my favorite recordings is Roy Orbison's Black & White Night, but I'm not crazy about the unconventional approach they took to the mix. You may be familar with the recording. We have Roy front and center with the support of a group of other top name performers. In particular they have a female chorus positioned behind Roy, but their voices are aggressively directed to the surrounds, behind the listeners. That's not where I would have placed them.

Returning to the issue of the Model S, if we could get a 5.1 signal in the system I would be a little concerned about sending direct sounds to the soundbar mounted on the rear hatch. It certainly should be okay for reproducing ambiance, but for Roy's mix discussed above, I'd be concerned that the direct voices of the chorus would sound better in the door speakers rather than forced to that soundbar. Maybe it would be something that could be mitigated with intelligent use of the fader control.

Larry
 
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Finally received and installed parcel shelf today. Maybe all psychological, but audio sure seems to sound just a notch better. Still very front-speaker oriented, but just a bit more balanced. I'd be interested what others think when they put in their shelves.
 
One thing I find interesting is the fact that most car manufacturers brag about the component brands of their high-end audio systems (Bose, JBL, Mark Levinson, B & O, etc.). Tesla has been a bit quiet about this with Dolby Pro-Logic being the only brand mentioned. Are the speakers and amps Radio Shack? I certainly hope not :scared:

I've pulled apart the passenger door to look at replacing the speaker (6" non-sound studio). Surprisingly it's a Tesla unique speaker, built by "SW" in China. I've seen the SW logo before somewhere, but I've been unable to identify the company. Part of the speaker's plastic molding has both the SW and Tesla logos as does a label on the rear of the speaker. It's clearly a custom design, as I've never seen anything quite like it. The basket is all composite plastic (every speaker I've seen before is metal). This doesn't mean it's poorer quality than other speakers, just an interesting new design. I assume this was done to make it lighter and integrate the mounting into a single assembly. The impedance is 2 ohms.

While getting inside part of the dash for some wiring additions, I also found a metal box that had label that talked about HD Radio, made by Panasonic. It's above the break pedal. I don't know if this is just the radio front end or the amp/radio combo. Panasonic has a close relationship with Tesla (makes all the batteries), and has an automotive audio division that makes systems for many other makes (Infiniti, etc.). I was unable to find the part via the web, so may be a custom or semi-custom part for Tesla. The Panasonic automotive website has very little details on exact products and specifications - seems to be quite vague other than they do make quite a few systems.

Lastly, Tesla has an extra 15 amp fuse just for the Sound Studio. I gather this is for the extra channels amp or perhaps a subwoofer amp.
 
I just set the appointment for my sound upgrade done through a professional studio sound installer. They did the systems in my previous cars and I'm excited to see what the end result will be. I will report when it is completed.
I'm in the midst of the sound upgrade & there are some pix posted on the Facebook page that is linked under this thread (which will be continuously updated):
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...TOMIZED-more-Teslas-than-all-others-combined!
 
I take back everything I said in previous posts about the Tesla premium audio. It turns out that it's an excellent system IF YOU FEED IT HIGH QUALITY AUDIO INPUT. In February, I visited a friend who has a great setup, and he sold me on the virtues of a decent DAC. So, I bought one and proceeded on the journey to re-rip 400+ CDs to FLAC so I could take advantage of it. I just finished that process of improving my home audio, and loaded up a drive with FLAC for the Tesla too. WOW what a difference. Whoever designed the system must just hate compression, because it sounds like crap with MP3 and like heaven with lossless.

For those of you who know what I'm talking about, I'm probably really late to the audiophile party. Please don't laugh too hard at me for getting lured into MP3 land for the last decade.

For those of you who don't understand this post, let me make it simple: rip all of your CDs to FLAC format. Look up tools to do that on the internet. It'll take hours, but do it anyway. Load them on a USB drive, put in the Model S, turn it up to 11, and enjoy. While you're at it, buy a Schiit Bifrost DAC to go between your digital source and your home stereo so that sounds great too.
 
I take back everything I said in previous posts about the Tesla premium audio. It turns out that it's an excellent system IF YOU FEED IT HIGH QUALITY AUDIO INPUT.
For those of you who don't understand this post, let me make it simple: rip all of your CDs to FLAC format. Look up tools to do that on the internet. It'll take hours, but do it anyway. Load them on a USB drive, put in the Model S, turn it up to 11, and enjoy. While you're at it, buy a Schiit Bifrost DAC to go between your digital source and your home stereo so that sounds great too.
Anyone know a good (somewhat) legal source of downloadable lossless audio for this type of project? I don't have any CDs...
 
So I've had the car with the upgraded audio for 3 months now. I'm a low-end audiophile: I've got a 5-figure home stereo/theater system built around Thiel speakers so I like accurate detailed sound with good imaging. Mostly I play CD-quality FLAC tracks via USB in the car but I've also started to play with Slacker radio over the past few days. My 2 cents:

To my mind, Tesla has made an interesting choice in where and how they've chosen to improve the sound in the upgrade. I think they tried to make the sound system deliver things that are much harder to do (or flat out impossible) in a noisier ICE car. Like high-end detail and clarity that I suspect would literally get lost in the noise of an ICE.

The forward-oriented sound stage took a little getting used to but I like it now. I feel like I'm getting the kind of imaging and soundstage that I'd get in a decent (but not audiophile grade) home system and I found I like it and probably prefer that to the "immersed in sound" experience that is typical of car stereos. Bear in mind I prefer to listen to music through speakers not headphones for much the same reasons. Extra bonus points is that the forward-oriented sound stage means that it's quieter in the back which is better for small children napping.

The irony is that what the upgraded audio does best takes a huge hit if you play compressed music through the system instead of CD-quality music. The compression strips out a lot of the signal that the upgraded stereo shows off.

Slacker radio sounds a heck of lot better than FM radio. The mid-range is surprisingly good and there's a fair amount of bass and treble. Honestly, it's better than I expected. But the imaging, sound stage, openness and general detail on both low and high end really suffer compared to playing FLAC or WAV. Mid-range probably suffers too but I haven't tried asking Slacker for tracks with good female vocalists yet so I'm not sure. An exercise for tomorrow :).

So my suggestions for the upgraded sound system are:

1) seriously consider getting the standard audio if you're going to play primarily compressed audio (iTunes store tracks, iTunes Match, Slacker, etc.) or stream via Bluetooth. Even 256/320 kbps compression is going to hamstring the upgraded stereo and I'm not the resulting sound improvements will be worth the money. Testing 256/320 kbps tracks vs. WAV/FLAC could be worth it if you can find a car with the standard audio system.
2) if you have the upgraded system, you should definitely go to the trouble of getting a lot of FLAC or WAV tracks onto a thumb drive. The difference in sound is quite noticeable.
3) give the standard fade adjustment some time. It's a different audio experience than you're used to but if you give it some time, you may really like it.
4) adjust tone to taste. The recommendations seem to be all over the map. I've found what works for me. I think a recording engineer recommended something like +3.5 bass, +2 mid, +3 treble. Others have done something different. I'd suggest start with a curve "high bass boost, medium treble boost, small mid boost" or "boost mid" or "cut mid" and experiment. Keep at it until you find something you like.
5) turn Dolby off. Honestly, I don't know why it's in there. Except maybe a future upgrade will take advantage of it.
6) As good as the system is, it's not a match for a really good aftermarket system. If you're a serious audiophile, go aftermarket.
 
So I've had the car with the upgraded audio for 3 months now. I'm a low-end audiophile: I've got a 5-figure home stereo/theater system built around Thiel speakers so I like accurate detailed sound with good imaging. Mostly I play CD-quality FLAC tracks via USB in the car but I've also started to play with Slacker radio over the past few days. My 2 cents:

To my mind, Tesla has made an interesting choice in where and how they've chosen to improve the sound in the upgrade. I think they tried to make the sound system deliver things that are much harder to do (or flat out impossible) in a noisier ICE car. Like high-end detail and clarity that I suspect would literally get lost in the noise of an ICE.

The forward-oriented sound stage took a little getting used to but I like it now. I feel like I'm getting the kind of imaging and soundstage that I'd get in a decent (but not audiophile grade) home system and I found I like it and probably prefer that to the "immersed in sound" experience that is typical of car stereos. Bear in mind I prefer to listen to music through speakers not headphones for much the same reasons. Extra bonus points is that the forward-oriented sound stage means that it's quieter in the back which is better for small children napping.

The irony is that what the upgraded audio does best takes a huge hit if you play compressed music through the system instead of CD-quality music. The compression strips out a lot of the signal that the upgraded stereo shows off.

Slacker radio sounds a heck of lot better than FM radio. The mid-range is surprisingly good and there's a fair amount of bass and treble. Honestly, it's better than I expected. But the imaging, sound stage, openness and general detail on both low and high end really suffer compared to playing FLAC or WAV. Mid-range probably suffers too but I haven't tried asking Slacker for tracks with good female vocalists yet so I'm not sure. An exercise for tomorrow :).

So my suggestions for the upgraded sound system are:

1) seriously consider getting the standard audio if you're going to play primarily compressed audio (iTunes store tracks, iTunes Match, Slacker, etc.) or stream via Bluetooth. Even 256/320 kbps compression is going to hamstring the upgraded stereo and I'm not the resulting sound improvements will be worth the money. Testing 256/320 kbps tracks vs. WAV/FLAC could be worth it if you can find a car with the standard audio system.
2) if you have the upgraded system, you should definitely go to the trouble of getting a lot of FLAC or WAV tracks onto a thumb drive. The difference in sound is quite noticeable.
3) give the standard fade adjustment some time. It's a different audio experience than you're used to but if you give it some time, you may really like it.
4) adjust tone to taste. The recommendations seem to be all over the map. I've found what works for me. I think a recording engineer recommended something like +3.5 bass, +2 mid, +3 treble. Others have done something different. I'd suggest start with a curve "high bass boost, medium treble boost, small mid boost" or "boost mid" or "cut mid" and experiment. Keep at it until you find something you like.
5) turn Dolby off. Honestly, I don't know why it's in there. Except maybe a future upgrade will take advantage of it.
6) As good as the system is, it's not a match for a really good aftermarket system. If you're a serious audiophile, go aftermarket.

Amen except I don't know any good reason to bastardize with aftermarket and lose integration, risk rattles, cut holes, etc. just enjoy audiophile at home and almost-audiophile in car.
 
But the imaging, sound stage, openness and general detail on both low and high end really suffer compared to playing FLAC or WAV.
...

2) if you have the upgraded system, you should definitely go to the trouble of getting a lot of FLAC or WAV tracks onto a thumb drive. The difference in sound is quite noticeable.

So I ripped two of my CD's ("Mer de Noms" by A Perfect Circle and "Movement in the Still Life" by BT) last night to FLAC using EAC and tried A/B comparing them today in the S (with premium sound). I cannot hear even the slightest difference on any tracks... maybe a hint more high end on "3 Libras". The APC tracks I'm comparing against are MP3, probably 256kbps and the BT tracks are iTunes matched m4a (256kbps MP4).

What songs/albums are people hearing these differences in sound quality between FLAC and something like MP4/256kbps?
 
Just another datapoint, and I'm not really an audiophile (certainly not compared to others on this thread!), but I've always had the upgraded systems in previous Audi's and Merc's, so based on that experience, and a lot of tinkering with after-market upgrades in the days when I couldn't afford nicer cars, I'm starting to lose a lot of faith in the S's premium sound. In particular:

- The EQ settings are nice, but I cannot find a good setting that works for most sources. I don't listen to anything too weird, if I could just have 1 Slacker channel, it would be 80s, 90s and Today. But even within those poppy/rocky genres, I feel the need to fiddle with the EQ settings, and even turn the surround sound on sometimes, to find the ideal setting. And when I say 'ideal', it rarely is.

- I'm experiencing a lot of resonance from different areas of the car. The speaker cover on the drivers door is one of those when there's a bassy tune playing. There's another might higher pitched rattle - almost a hiss or a buzz - coming from somewhere, but I'm not sure where. Best guess would be the vent on the dash, but I'm not sure. These things drive me nuts, however, my normal helper (wife) can't even hear them.

- With the EQ settings set where I kind of like them (B: +6, M: -2, T: +2), going to 11 is not loud enough, especially with the roof open. The bass, for me, lacks depth, but if I bump it up any more, the resonance is unbearable.

I hope a lot of this will be fixed in software, but the resonance is an interior fit issue, so will need to be fixed at the Service center, but previous experience with other cars suggests this will not be very successful.
 
So I ripped two of my CD's ("Mer de Noms" by A Perfect Circle and "Movement in the Still Life" by BT) last night to FLAC using EAC and tried A/B comparing them today in the S (with premium sound). I cannot hear even the slightest difference on any tracks... maybe a hint more high end on "3 Libras". The APC tracks I'm comparing against are MP3, probably 256kbps and the BT tracks are iTunes matched m4a (256kbps MP4).

What songs/albums are people hearing these differences in sound quality between FLAC and something like MP4/256kbps?

Female vocalists and acoustic music show up a lot of the differences. Norah Jones, Cold Cold Heart from Come Away With Me. Annie Lennox, Cold from Diva. The timbre of the voice sounds different. There's more edge and presence in the uncompressed version. The compressed version sounds more smoothed out. Crooked Still, Darling Corey, from Hop High sounds very different. Finger-plucking banjo plus imaging, if I recall correctly.

Imaging differences can show up too. Sparkling Diamonds (film version) from the Moulin Rouge 2 soundtrack album.

And this was 320 AAC.

On a good set of home speakers, the differences between 320 AAC and uncompressed show up like night and day. Pulstar (Albedo 0.39) by Vangelis. Many Norah Jones cuts from Come Away With Me and Annie Lennox cuts from Diva. The Fly from Achtung Baby by U2. Well-recorded Big-band Jazz. The list goes on.

On the Model S, the differences aren't quite so apparent but they're there. Overall, there's just a little more edge and presence. And sometimes the difference jumps out at you, especially if you know what to listen for.

As for Slacker, my goodness. That is like night and day for many cuts I've listened to. Oddly enough, there have been some exceptions where Slacker is close -- there's a difference but it's not hugely obvious. I think that was stuff like Boston and Kansas but I'd have to double-check to be sure. Don't get me wrong. Slacker is fun. But the compression effects are clearly audible to my ears.
 
- With the EQ settings set where I kind of like them (B: +6, M: -2, T: +2), going to 11 is not loud enough, especially with the roof open. The bass, for me, lacks depth, but if I bump it up any more, the resonance is unbearable.
Holy volume batman! 11 isn't loud enough?

I find it almost unbearably loud at 6 and my typical volume is 3. At around 8, I think I can feel my teeth rattling. I can't imagine trying to listen to it at 11.
 
Holy volume batman! 11 isn't loud enough?

I find it almost unbearably loud at 6. At around 8, I think I can feel my teeth rattling. I can't imagine trying to listen to it at 11.
Pardon? :)

It's really not that loud, and I'm not deaf (yet). With the EQ setting up high it is loud, but at the settings I normally use, it's not crazy loud by any means. Now, if I forget to turn it down the hop in the car the next morning, then it's loud!