Auto Pilot Is Dangerous

[AlanSubie4Life]

The mods should retitle this thread. The heretical nature of the title is the main issue here. My suggestions of possible new titles:

“My Autopilot is Broken”
“My Autopilot is Stroking Out”
“My Autopilot Has the Hots for Well-Marked Lines”
“My Autopilot Is Miscalibrated and Trying to Kill Me and My Child”
“My Autopilot is Unstable”
“This is Not Normal Tesla AP Behavior”

 

[Toppatop55]

Do what knight shade suggested and get a sc appointment. Your car is behaving abnormally.

i just read that you did go in for service. i would get another service appointment. Maybe at a different SC center. What was the techs response when you showed him the Video?

everyone on these questions have been asked and answered through the thread.

 

[Toppatop55]

Take it to service and get the cameras fixed/replaced. There's obviously something wrong with them. All the other convo between the OP and here is TL,dr - bottom line is you need to get the car fixed.

lol while I completely agree with you, how do you force a service center to reluctantly replace parts when they won't even knowledge the issue, not to mention Im not an expert in diagnosing Teslas. what ground would I have to stand on to convince them it's a faulty camera.

 

[Toppatop55]

Physically it can't override your input, at least not for braking and steering, those are still directly mechanical like any other car, and I don't think the steering wheel motor has enough torque to outpower an average person. And it'd have to be a SEVERE bug to allow the computer to control acceleration and steering even when the user is depressing the brakes or turning the wheel. As far as I know, that has never been reported, thank god. Until I hear reports of Tesla's attempting to over-ride user input after they firmly apply the brakes and steering wheel, your argument is at best a straw man.

The fact is you agreed when you enabled autosteer that you were testing a beta software and you understood there would be risks. As a software developer, it is a pet peeve of mine when people don't understand that beta/alpha software is going to have SEVERE, EXPERIENCE BREAKING ISSUES. In a car this can easily mean a fatal crash. I'd personally not use a beta software with a 7 month old kid in the car, but that's my preference. Regardless of whether you paid for this vaporware or not, realize it's still very, very far from being safe. Then again, driving is inherently dangerous autopilot or not. I think right now the best use for autopilot is as an extra level of safety as it's like having a copilot that nags you if you're getting to close to fast to the car in front of you or try to change lanes in a dangerous manner. Maybe one day it'll be worth the money some people paid for it, but I pity the people that paid for "Full Self Driving", given the average American keeps a car less than 4 years, and there is no way that is functional by 2024.

I don't understand the onslaught claims of the of the software being in beta. It seems some people are just trying to change the subject to relieve Tesla of any obligations. My issue and complaint isn't the simple fact that auto pilot acts up, its to the extent of it. AND the fact that the SC refuses to acknowledge, diagnose and correct the issue. Nothing wrong with a beta device but when a dangerous issue arrises and you don't take immediate actions to correct, that my friend make the device "dangerous."

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don't understand the onslaught claims of the of the software being in beta. It seems some people are just trying to change the subject to relieve Tesla of any obligations. My issue and complaint isn't the simple fact that auto pilot acts up, its to the extent of it. AND the fact that the SC refuses to acknowledge, diagnose and correct the issue. Nothing wrong with a beta device but when a dangerous issue arrises and you don't take immediate actions to correct, that my friend make the device "dangerous."

As I mentioned above, it’s the heresy inherent in the thread title. Hopefully the mods will change it. And hopefully you can convince Tesla to take another look. These videos are clear and convincing proof of a problem. I would be in that service center until I had convinced them there is a problem. And try a different SC if you must. Your car is all messed up. Really has nothing to do with Autopilot as a system.

 

[qdeathstar]

my tesla can make it all the way down a road with no lane markings on autopilot and doesn’t swerve at all, you’ve got clear lane ma

everyone on these questions have been asked and answered through the thread.

Got to find a new SC, and keep trying till someone does something. There is something wrong with your car that is unique and not systemic. AP isn’t dangerous when it is used correctly, but your car isn’t safe and your service center is horrible.

This is what my AP looks like

Sorry about the noobish vertical video.


About 1 minute in you can see it navigating when lines stop an a curve...

 

[sduck]

lol while I completely agree with you, how do you force a service center to reluctantly replace parts when they won't even knowledge the issue, not to mention Im not an expert in diagnosing Teslas. what ground would I have to stand on to convince them it's a faulty camera.

You just haven't tried hard enough. They can't just deny you service, that's unacceptable. Make a service appointment via the app. In the notes section post the links to your videos. It's obvious to anyone who's seen your video that you've got a faulty camera. If they continue to deny you service, escalate and/or lawyer up.

 

[Toppatop55]

The mods should retitle this thread. The heretical nature of the title is the main issue here. My suggestions of possible new titles:

“My Autopilot is Broken”
“My Autopilot is Stroking Out”
“My Autopilot Has the Hots for Well-Marked Lines”
“My Autopilot Is Miscalibrated and Trying to Kill Me and My Child”
“My Autopilot is Unstable”
“This is Not Normal Tesla AP Behavior”

So your calling for censorship?? wow! the title is based on my experience, my feelings and thoughts about the experience I went through. if its not ok for me to express that, then why the hell do you think you or the mod should be able to sensor that?

 

[Toppatop55]

your car isn’t safe and your service center is horrible....

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[Toppatop55]

You just haven't tried hard enough. They can't just deny you service, that's unacceptable. Make a service appointment via the app. In the notes section post the links to your videos. It's obvious to anyone who's seen your video that you've got a faulty camera. If they continue to deny you service, escalate and/or lawyer up.

this forum is, my second step in escalation. next step if no resolve after my next SC appointment is the media

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So your calling for censorship?? wow! the title is based on my experience, my feelings and thoughts about the experience I went through. if its not ok for me to express that, then why the hell do you think you or the mod should be able to sensor that?

No. Content would be the same, just a more relevant title. And I was obviously being tongue in cheek about the title being heretical. It is perhaps riling up the true believers. As I have said several times, your car is broken. Hope you get it fixed.

 

[qdeathstar]

this forum is, my second step in escalation. next step if no resolve after my next SC appointment is the media

I don’t think posting on the internet is gonna help you get it resolved. Who all did you talk to at the sc? How many times did you bring it in?

 

[Kevy Baby]

!!

 

[AdamMacDon]

Why do people always say this? It's a 4000lb car with 2 turns lock to lock steering. Get into your car (without pressing the brake) and try to turn the steering wheel. The power steering motor is stronger than that.

I'm pretty sure they have an anti-theft lock on the wheel when it's in park and off, like every car built after the late 90's, so I wouldn't waste my time trying that. I've driven cars without power steering, and my Hemi Charger for a while (classic Mopar quality) had no power steering and I had fatter tires with far more weight over the front tires than my SR+ does. It's not that awful driving without power steering, and I highly doubt the average person is incapable of it, it's just not gonna be something you do with a few fingers. Does it take more energy than turning a power steering wheel at a stop? Sure, but when you're rolling it's barely different.

Also, more importantly, I have never seen a report of the car trying to wrest steering away from a user. If that cropped up, I'm sure the media would be all over it to tell us what death traps we are driving. Same goes for if the car tried to accelerate during a braking action. I'm sure those systems all have double or triple redundancy built in to prevent just that. Same with how on ICE vehicles I never had the cruise control just engage and try to drive me into a wall, even if I'm pressing the brake. Could it happen? Sure, but it's very unlikely. Autopilot is dangerous, but when it's turned off the car is completely safe and will listen to your input, unless you're about to cause a crash, in which case it may brake. Anyhow, use beta software with caution when your life is on the line, that's my 2 cents. Hopefully the OP can get the service center to take him seriously, but we all know that it's like herding cats with them.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm pretty sure they have an anti-theft lock on the wheel when it's in park and off, like every car built after the late 90's, so I wouldn't waste my time trying that

No, they actually do not have a lock, at least not that I found, so perhaps too could try what he says and see how hard it is to actually turn the wheels? Obviously it is a bit harder to turn wheels when you are stationary. But with my tires on a slick garage floor with no texture, it is VERY difficult.

Agreed that we can hope this sort of malfunction is extremely unlikely, but the point being made was that the power steering motor is extremely strong. Pretty sure it could overpower me.

 

[Toppatop55]

I don’t think posting on the internet is gonna help you get it resolved. Who all did you talk to at the sc? How many times did you bring it in?

Don’t know if it helped but I made a second appointment and did sent videos along with a link from this thread. And what do you know, I get a personal phone call from the service manager to discuss details and to start remote diagnostics. Perhaps when an issue becomes public it is taken more seriously. After all I don’t think Tesla wants it out in the wild that the autopilot may have any chance of being unsafe.

 

[slave0418]

For AP and FSD will be surely SAFE to use ONLY when ALL cars around will have some kind of TACC and AP. ONLY. It is my opinion and I wish to be wrong.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm pretty sure they have an anti-theft lock on the wheel when it's in park and off, like every car built after the late 90's, so I wouldn't waste my time trying that. I've driven cars without power steering, and my Hemi Charger for a while (classic Mopar quality) had no power steering and I had fatter tires with far more weight over the front tires than my SR+ does. It's not that awful driving without power steering, and I highly doubt the average person is incapable of it, it's just not gonna be something you do with a few fingers. Does it take more energy than turning a power steering wheel at a stop? Sure, but when you're rolling it's barely different.

Also, more importantly, I have never seen a report of the car trying to wrest steering away from a user. If that cropped up, I'm sure the media would be all over it to tell us what death traps we are driving. Same goes for if the car tried to accelerate during a braking action. I'm sure those systems all have double or triple redundancy built in to prevent just that. Same with how on ICE vehicles I never had the cruise control just engage and try to drive me into a wall, even if I'm pressing the brake. Could it happen? Sure, but it's very unlikely. Autopilot is dangerous, but when it's turned off the car is completely safe and will listen to your input, unless you're about to cause a crash, in which case it may brake. Anyhow, use beta software with caution when your life is on the line, that's my 2 cents. Hopefully the OP can get the service center to take him seriously, but we all know that it's like herding cats with them.

I put the car on a lift and verified that there is no steering wheel lock. The steering wheel spins freely with the wheels in the air. Maybe I'm just a weakling but I think the steering rack motor could overpower most people. Hopefully the failsafes are really good.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The steering wheel spins freely with the wheels in the air.

How hard was it to turn relative to wheels on the ground? It was super hard to turn the wheel in the garage. Thought I was going to break the car.

 

[KenC]

Tesla's Beta can mean that the company has not got a chance to work on a particular part just yet.

There might be certain stretches of roads that Autopilot needs further human drivers' examples so it can shadow the corrections in the background for a few months or years, then you can expect improvements in subsequent updates but not immediately.

Tesla sells beta product even when it's not ready because it believes that a competent driver can supervise Autopilot and it's completely safe as long as a driver is able to do corrections before the system would leave a lane and slam into a cement divider and kill someone.

The OP's weaving across lane lines at 70mph does not qualify as "beta". That's barely alpha. Barely. I doubt what the OP experienced has anything to do with the way the system was designed, rather, something was faulty, which is a totally different issue. If you think that's how a beta system operates at 70mph on slightly curving roads, and NHTSA had to test that, they'd shut that down quickly.

Don’t know if it helped but I made a second appointment and did sent videos along with a link from this thread. And what do you know, I get a personal phone call from the service manager to discuss details and to start remote diagnostics. Perhaps when an issue becomes public it is taken more seriously. After all I don’t think Tesla wants it out in the wild that the autopilot may have any chance of being unsafe.

Sometimes, it just takes the right person to notice. As for AP, it's safe. Yours is malfunctioning badly.