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I know Argo is old news but this just came out, more at his attempt as to "why". Not sure I agree.

https://www.hotcars.com/ford-multibillion-dollar-self-driving-investment-complete-failure/

the enthusiasm behind the autonomous driving idea appears to have fizzled out. While Waymo and GM Cruise are still optimistic, companies like Ford, Uber, and Lyft beg to differ.

The reasons, however, have more to do with the business side of things than the technology itself.
 
I know Argo is old news but this just came out, more at his attempt as to "why". Not sure I agree.

https://www.hotcars.com/ford-multibillion-dollar-self-driving-investment-complete-failure/

I think I would agree that Argo was shut down more for business reasons than tech reasons. Juergen Reers, a senior managing director at consulting firm Accenture says that the tech is advanced enough for L4 but is still very costly:

"Overall, the level of technology is well advanced, but a key challenge is the cost. In high levels of automated driving, a high degree of redundancy is needed. Combining camera, radar and lidar systems with high-definition maps and high computing requirements would make a Level 4 vehicle too costly for individual use. So we expect these vehicles to be used as shuttles, carrying multiple passengers, ideally 24/7 to absorb the cost."

And Raj Rajkumar, a professor in the electrical and computer engineering department at Carnegie Mellon University, says that a vision-only approach is cheap enough but is not good enough yet for reliable L4:

"First, some companies only want to rely on cameras for economic reasons—making the final system very affordable thanks to the fact that cameras in smartphones have made them ubiquitous, compact and inexpensive. Unfortunately, today’s vision technology using only cameras won’t match, for a long time to come, the cognitive capabilities of human eyes plus human neural processing. Two, lidar is a critical component, but while costs are coming down, the costs are still on the higher side. Radar, ultrasonic and GPS are well within acceptable cost limits already."

Source: When Will Cars Be Fully Self-Driving?

So I think the big issue is cost and the business side more than tech. That is not to say that the tech is solved yet but the tech needed for reliable L4 exists, it is just expensive. In theory, the robotaxi model should be profitable if you can bring down costs and deploy safe, reliable and convenient ride-hailing in high demand areas like cities. But that requires a lot of things to come together.

Obviously, the ultimate goal is to achieve safe, reliable L4 that is also cheap enough. When that happens, we will likely see mass scale of fully autonomous cars. One approach is to start with expensive tech that is good enough for reliable L4 and then try to bring costs down (Waymo). We are seeing cost of lidar already come down. So I imagine that costs will eventually be low enough. So I think the Waymo approach will work, it is just a matter of when and can it happen soon enough. The other approach is to start with low cost and then try to make the tech good enough for reliable L4 (Tesla). My guess is the two approaches will eventually merge. So we will see Waymo-like software but combined with fewer/cheaper sensors. For example, Mobileye says that their "eyes off" system will use surround vision, surround radar (with their in-house cheaper radar) and only 1 front lidar. So the idea is to find that middle ground where you still have some extra radar and lidar for added reliability but still keep costs reasonable.
 
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They imply the entire Robotaxi concept is a passing fad and people are losing interest. That's probably a regional kind of reaction. Maybe it would work well in high density cities but it's not something the vast majority of US midwesterners use, even in the large cities. I live in a city of 1m+ and I've never used our terrible mass transit system. And I've probably can count on one hand the number of Uber/Taxi rides I've taken in the last 10 years. It will be interesting how that works out.

They also said that UBER self driving has "given up" after the move to Aurora. That division continues to work on the FSD challenge with Aurora as a separate division, largely unchanged. Perhaps they are not clamoring the latest press release noise they used previously as hype isn't Aurora's style but I assure you that work is continuing. Obviously Aurora focuses on the long haul trucking industry with FSD but personally I expect them to expand the Robotaxi realm and potentially a "consumer" version not far down the road. They may be waiting for more industry focus first though.
 
They imply the entire Robotaxi concept is a passing fad and people are losing interest. That's probably a regional kind of reaction. Maybe it would work well in high density cities but it's not something the vast majority of US midwesterners use, even in the large cities. I live in a city of 1m+ and I've never used our terrible mass transit system. And I've probably can count on one hand the number of Uber/Taxi rides I've taken in the last 10 years. It will be interesting how that works out.

They also said that UBER self driving has "given up" after the move to Aurora. That division continues to work on the FSD challenge with Aurora as a separate division, largely unchanged. Perhaps they are not clamoring the latest press release noise they used previously as hype isn't Aurora's style but I assure you that work is continuing. Obviously Aurora focuses on the long haul trucking industry with FSD but personally I expect them to expand the Robotaxi realm and potentially a "consumer" version not far down the road. They may be waiting for more industry focus first though.
I think it is about time that folks are questioning the viability of robotaxi models. Without massive govt intervention taxi businesses throughout the world are very low margin and frequently result in bankruptcies. removing people does not improve the economic possibilities unless there are constraints to entry.

I think once we have 3 robotaxi fleets competing in all the major metro regions pricing will go to floor and profits will be illusory.
 
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I think it is about time that folks are questioning the viability of robotaxi models. Without massive govt intervention taxi businesses throughout the world are very low margin and frequently result in bankruptcies. removing people does not improve the economic possibilities unless there are constraints to entry.

I think once we have 3 robotaxi fleets competing in all the major metro regions pricing will go to floor and profits will be illusory.
That's welcome to free markets the hard way.
 
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I think it is about time that folks are questioning the viability of robotaxi models. Without massive govt intervention taxi businesses throughout the world are very low margin and frequently result in bankruptcies. removing people does not improve the economic possibilities unless there are constraints to entry.

I think once we have 3 robotaxi fleets competing in all the major metro regions pricing will go to floor and profits will be illusory.

Well, if robotaxis don't achieve profitability, it won't be wasted though because the underlying autonomous driving will still be good and can be used in other applications.
 
Well, if robotaxis don't achieve profitability, it won't be wasted though because the underlying autonomous driving will still be good and can be used in other applications.
Oh I think they will be profitable but so is Walmart. So are railroads. I think the market is more limited in the USA than some expect, I think China won’t let Tesla compete until China has a national champion or 4. I could see the same for Japan and Korea. Call me a skeptic on quick and rapid profit that would justify a high peg ratio.
 
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Oh I think they will be profitable but so is Walmart. So are railroads. I think the market is more limited in the USA than some expect, I think China won’t let Tesla compete until China has a national champion or 4. I could see the same for Japan and Korea. Call me a skeptic on quick and rapid profit that would justify a high peg ratio.

There is certainly understandable skepticism about the profitability of robotaxis. After all, robotaxis are a new tech, they are expensive and they have not penetrated markets yet. Costs will come down but I think the real question is adoption. There are so many viable alternatives to robotaxis. Personal car ownership is very dominant in the US. Americans see personal car ownership as a sign of freedom and independence that they won't give up easily. There is also mass transit in many cities as well as human ride-hailing. So some argue that it will be very hard for robotaxis to achieve mass adoption when right now there are better options. Robotaxis will need to prove that they are superior to these other options.

I do think the robotaxi skeptics might be missing that robotaxi tech is not static, it will continue to improve. Computers started as huge servers that took entire rooms and could only do basic arithmetic. People thought that computers would never scale. But the critics missed that computers would get smaller, cheaper and more powerful, making them more useful and more scalable. Similarly, robotaxis will get cheaper and smarter which will make them more scalable. And I do think robotaxis will eventually penetrate some markets. They won't replace all personal cars overnight but I think robotaxis will do well in certain cities, where mass transit is poor and/or where personal car ownership is expensive, especially when robotaxis do become cheaper and are super reliable and convenient. Ultimately, just like computers eventually found applications in lots of different devices from cars, to phones, to TVs etc... I suspect autonomous driving will find different applications as well. We will see robotaxis and autonomous shuttles in some cities, personal cars with "eyes off - highway", autonomous trucks, etc...
 
The other approach is to start with low cost and then try to make the tech good enough for reliable L4 (Tesla).
As a Tesla driver I fear that Elon Musk may have been a bit over-optimistic, as far as Full Self Driving (FSD) goes. The problem is that drivers may become over-reliant when they only have one fault every 100 or 1.000 or 10.000 miles and will have accidents where you can argue endlessly whether FSD was at fault or whether it was the human driver who was just not attentive enough in an L2 car.

Formally with L2 it's always the driver, but this can become unrealistic. Judges may accept the idea that normal humans will become over-reliant as the number of errors becomes low.

So there may be a gap in the business model of L2 FSD.
 
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As a Tesla driver I fear that Elon Musk may have been a bit over-optimistic, as far as Full Self Driving (FSD) goes.

That's an understatement.

The problem is that drivers may become over-reliant when they only have one fault every 100 or 1.000 or 10.000 miles and will have accidents where you can argue endlessly whether FSD was at fault or whether it was the human driver who was just not attentive enough in an L2 car.

Yes. The idea is that there is a "twilight zone" between "eyes on" and "eyes off" where the failure rate is not good enough for "eyes off" but good enough for the driver starts to get complacent. That is where risk is the highest for an accident. I think Mobileye's CEO has mentioned that once you start to go an hour or two between interventions that the driver is going to get complacent. But there is a debate about whether it is a problem and what to do. Some argue that the complacency is real and proof that doing any "eyes on/hands off" is a bad idea. That is why Waymo rejected doing their own autopilot and decided to focus on L4 only. Mobileye argues that with robust driver monitoring that "eyes on/hands off" is not a big safety issue. Shashua has said that human drivers and machines have different failure modes: human accidents tend to be the result of distraction or impairment. AVs don't get tired or distracted. AVs do get confused by complex situations outside of their training set. Humans are good at solving complex situations. So he argues that with robust driver monitoring that keeps humans alert to take over if the machine fails that there is a good synergy between man and machine that will keep the L2 safe.
 
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Mobileye argues that with robust driver monitoring that "eyes on/hands off" is not a big safety issue. Shashua has said that human drivers and machines have different failure modes: human accidents tend to be the result of distraction or impairment
Humans are inherently lazy. Nothing wrong with it, it's just how we are. The more conveniences we have the better. My personal opinion is that people really want L4, and L2 is an annoying stop on the way for many. The hands on nags illicit strong negative reactions in many, who are clamoring for hands off, eyes on. However, I think once that happens, we'll start to see negative reactions to eyes on as well. "I wanted to check my phone for a moment and the car yelled at me!".
 
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Humans are inherently lazy. Nothing wrong with it, it's just how we are. The more conveniences we have the better. My personal opinion is that people really want L4, and L2 is an annoying stop on the way for many. The hands on nags illicit strong negative reactions in many, who are clamoring for hands off, eyes on. However, I think once that happens, we'll start to see negative reactions to eyes on as well. "I wanted to check my phone for a moment and the car yelled at me!".

Yep, definitely agree. I think "eyes on/hands off" will become obsolete once L4 really scales. So in that sense, I think carmakers are wasting their time with "eyes on/hands off". Maybe it is a good short term option while we wait for L4 on consumer cars but nobody will want it once driverless/eyes-off is available. Like you said, if there is a choice, people will pick the option that let's them be lazy and do other stuff over the option that requires they stare out the windshield all the time and nags them every 5 seconds when they don't.
 
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Is there a typo in this article that says Ford BlueCruise is “hands-free, eyes off”?


Related to this, this Bloomberg article confirms that the current Blue Cruise is NOT eyes off:

"That kind of technology would be a significant advancement from Ford’s current BlueCruise semi-autonomous feature, which allows drivers to take their hands off the wheel on certain highways, but requires them to keep their eyes on the road."

However, Ford CEO Farley made a very Elon-like FSD promise about the next gen F series electric pick-up truck in 2025:

“On the highway on a sunny day, you should be able to go to sleep in your truck or make a call or do whatever you want to do in your truck while it drives for you,” Jim Farley, Ford’s chief executive officer, said in an interview Friday on Bloomberg Television. “It will be completely digital. It’s a really breakthrough product.”

So Farley is promising the next gen electric F series pick-truck scheduled to debut 2025 will be "eyes off" on highways. So maybe the other article got the two techs confused?

Source: Ford’s CEO Says Upcoming Electric Pickup Truck Will Drive Itself
 
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