How old are you? Do you even have a drivers license? There’s no way someone who’s been on U.S. roads for even a handful of years can’t see that cops are called for even the mildest of accidents because people are convinced that a police report is necessary for insurance claims, and only a small fraction of those actually have airbags deployed. If it was based on fire or ambulance dispatch? Maybe.
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Autonomous Car Progress
- Thread starter stopcrazypp
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willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
No need to be condescending. Almost 20% of the drivers in the DC area are uninsured (and that 20% is much more likely to be involved in an accident). In my experience, the majority of accidents here do not involve the police.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Back on the topic of actual autonomous car progress, there's a sad report this morning of a Waymo being driven autonomously hitting and killing a dog in San Francisco: Waymo Kills Small Dog on San Francisco Street, DMV Report Says
"The investigation is ongoing, however, the initial review confirmed that the system correctly identified the dog, which ran out from behind a parked vehicle, but was not able to avoid contact," a spokesperson said. "The trust and safety of the communities we are in is the most important thing to us, and we’re continuing to look into this on our end."
It may have actually been unavoidable, but this will very likely worsen public perception of autonomous vehicles.
"The investigation is ongoing, however, the initial review confirmed that the system correctly identified the dog, which ran out from behind a parked vehicle, but was not able to avoid contact," a spokesperson said. "The trust and safety of the communities we are in is the most important thing to us, and we’re continuing to look into this on our end."
It may have actually been unavoidable, but this will very likely worsen public perception of autonomous vehicles.
Elon Musk: Tesla Is Happy To License Autopilot, FSD To Other Automakers
It’s an interesting approach that aligns nicely with the American brand’s announcement from 2014, when it made all its patents freely available to anyone who, in good faith, wants to use its technology.
insideevs.com
He does have good sense of humour!
Let's keep pumping that stock!Elon Musk: Tesla Is Happy To License Autopilot, FSD To Other Automakers
It’s an interesting approach that aligns nicely with the American brand’s announcement from 2014, when it made all its patents freely available to anyone who, in good faith, wants to use its technology.
He does have good sense of humour!
Not being condescending - trying to reground the argument in reality. What's happened is you've gotten yourself backed into a corner in your argument so you're making ridiculous statements to try and stay on the "correct" side. No shame in it - happens to all of us.
But I think it's objectively apparent to everyone here (probably including you) that only a small percentage of police-reported accidents involve an airbag deployment. Just off the top of my head I can count 9 accidents in my lifetime between myself, my wife, and all of my children where the police were called, and only one of those involved airbag deployment. I would bet a year's salary that everyone else has similar experience.
I've been involved in about 10 collisions, none involving airbags, and the police were not called to a single one of them. In fact in my area if you call for a police response they tell you that unless someone is injured and being taken away in an ambulance, or a vehicle is disabled and blocking an intersection, it would likely be 2-3 hours before they show up. (They say you can file a police report online if you really want to, but that it isn't necessary. However, if there is pretty much any damage you are required to file a DMV report.)
EVNow
Well-Known Member
‘Incompetent’ driverless cars are wreaking havoc on San Francisco
As Cruise and Waymo wrestle for dominance, local transportation agencies worry the...
They ram through loose electrical wires and bring rush hour traffic grinding to a halt. They tear through crime scene caution tape and rear end city buses. Sometimes, they even obstruct Muni routes like the N Judah, inconveniencing hundreds of passengers who are simply trying to go home after a long day at work.
...
“In the short term, we need AVs to demonstrate that they can operate on our streets without creating new hazards,” Stephen Chun, a spokesperson for the SFMTA, told SFGATE in a written statement. “If they want us to believe things are getting better, they should give us data to demonstrate that, because that is not what we are seeing from calls to 911 and reports from SF Fire Department and Muni personnel.”
The SFMTA wrote in its January letter that there were 92 reported incidents involving Cruise vehicles from May 29, 2022, through Dec. 31, 2022. Frustratingly, 88% of them took place on busy corridors where Muni lines, buses and street cars carry thousands of passengers each day. Even if an AV stalls for just a few minutes in one of those areas, Chun explained, it can disrupt service up to 2.5 hours. He also said that the SFMTA received three times as many calls and complaints in March and April compared to December of last year.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
How much do you make per year ?
In WA it is almost impossible to get police to take an accident report. The accident has to be really bad with bodily injury etc.
Here is a "funny" anecdote - someone rear-ended my car a few years ago. While coming back home - a cop caught me (for a weird thing - taking a left after the light turned red, even though it is allowed by law if you are already in the intersection as I was for a few minutes). Anyway, he gave me a ticket and I told him about the rear ending and that I want to lodge a compliant. He didn't want to take the accident report - just gave the ticket and walked away saying I've to go to the police station to lodge the accident report. Yes, pre-internet everything days.
I agree that @Goose66 was being a little condescending, but I also agree with their point. In SoCal, police are usually called for most accidents, including minor fender-benders. It's pretty common to see cars on the side of the road with a police car behind them for what looks like a minor accident.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
My only impression of Ghost is that they are spending a lot of money and time on trying to look good. Who funding Ghost? Has they shown any real drives? I get a similar vibe with Wayve.
The Ghost leadership team seem to have no prior experience in AI nor AV:s. Company | Ghost
Alex Kendall is at least trying to solve something between the funding rounds and has a relevant background.
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diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Ghost got $100M back in 2021 led by Sutter Hill Bentures. Returning investor Founders Fund also participated in the round, along with Coatue. (Source: Ghost raises $100M Series D for autonomous driving and crash prevention tech)
They have not shown any real drives yet AFAIK. I think they are still in an early stage of development. But Ghost did get their permit at the end of Nov 2022 to start testing in CA with a safety driver. (Source: Bringing Consumer Autonomy to California’s Highways | Ghost)
They gave InsideEVs a ride-along. (Source: https://insideevs.com/features/666853/ghost-autonomy-autonomous-driving-smartphone-cameras/)
Ghost and Wayve are similar in the sense that they are both start-ups in an early stage of development. And they both think they have a new way of approaching autonomy. But their approaches are very different.
I certainly do not see Ghost as a leader in autonomy. But their KineticFlow and Collaborative AI ideas are intriguing. And I do like that they are focusing on a cheap solution for consumer cars. And if they are eventually able to do "eyes off" on highways for average consumer cars, that would be amazing. Heck, even if they do just offer "hands-off/eyes on" on highways on average consumer cars, that would be nice for a lot of people who can't afford to buy the high end cars.
I am welcome many different approaches and many different players in the AV space. It is a very big space, big enough for everyone. And different players can each bring something unique to the table that can benefit the consumer. Furthermore, competition is good to bring down costs and promote innovation. So the more players, the faster autonomous driving will get solved and scale.
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diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I don't think they have pivoted. I think they are still making a Comma AI competitor. The software defined radar is in addition. AFAIK, they are doing both. I think they want the in-house radar to help them develop their ADAS system.
I don't think anecdotal accounts are that useful. As other mentioned, it's also trivial to get anecdotal accounts that suggest few accidents have police reports filed. Many states require DMV reports, but many don't require police reports. NHTSA as others pointed out apparently only takes its data from police reports (from my research other than for FARS which covers only fatal accidents). As such, either method can miss accidents by a significant amount.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I think it is quite clean now that the police reporting varies greatly among various states. There is no one standard.
Actually - this has been studied quite widely in academia. Infact that’s why Virginia Tech started their own program to recruit volunteers to get a good sample of driving. Problems with NHTSA data are well known and well understood.
Decided to look at some data to quantify it. Of the police reported accidents sampled (which is the basis for NHTSA numbers), the CRSS data file person.csv has the airbag data.
NHTSA File Downloads | NHTSA
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813436
There were 133734 data points (persons), 54187 unique cases. The cases I broke down to:
15277 Airbag Deployed
33012 Not Deployed (and no people in other categories other than involving an non motor vehicle occupant)
5898 Not Reported/Reported as Deployment Unknown/(Purely) Not a Motor Vehicle Occupant (only 22)
Works out to:
28% Airbag Deployed
61% Not Deployed (and no vehicles in other categories)
11% Others
If ignoring the others:
31.6% Airbag Deployed
68.4% Not Deployed
Even among the police reportable ones, that's a lot more than 1/9 of the time. It's more like 1/3.
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Another distinction that’s being made here is “DMV Report” versus “Police Report.” Honestly I wasn’t even aware of the former. In Georgia, all accidents with property damage over $500 must be reported to local or state police. There is no option for self-reporting AFAIK. I worked rescue as a paramedic in Virginia for a number of years and also lived in North Carolina and believe the requirements there were the same. I’ve also never seen a DMV report brought up in a trial. But, if there are a significant number of states that don’t require police reports but let you self report via these “DMV reports” (which has to be an insurance nightmare), then your results may vary.
But be it 3x or 8x or something in between, I stand by the notion that the fact there are significantly more reported accidents (police or otherwise) than airbag deployments is self evident, and to try to cover the disparity in Teslas reporting versus NHTSA reporting by suggesting otherwise is posturing for argument and not grounded in reality.
But be it 3x or 8x or something in between, I stand by the notion that the fact there are significantly more reported accidents (police or otherwise) than airbag deployments is self evident, and to try to cover the disparity in Teslas reporting versus NHTSA reporting by suggesting otherwise is posturing for argument and not grounded in reality.
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