Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Autonomous Car Progress

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Dolgov says Waymo's goal is one Waymo Driver that works on any vehicle and in any city. He also teases "next phase of AV expansion" in 2023:


I wonder what "next phase of AV expansion" means. I think it likely means Waymo will focus on scaling up now, and not just scaling out.

Dolgov also wrote a piece in Wired where he says that 2023 will see a new phase of scaling and expansion.

AVs are now entering a new phase of scaling and expansion—one that will make 2023 a pivotal year in which AVs can start to benefit more people in more places.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Informative
Reactions: DanCar and Dewg
In the Wired article, Dolgov also mentions some examples of what a generalized Waymo Driver needs to be able to do:

In the United States, the same technology needs to be able to handle San Francisco’s traffic density, hills, and fog; Phoenix’s scorching temperatures and monsoon season; New York’s cold winters and heavy traffic; and the highways of Los Angeles. It also needs to be able to operate different types of vehicles safely and consistently.

He mentions SF and Phoenix which Waymo is already doing. And he mentions NYC. It could be a hint that Waymo is planning to launch in NYC after LA. They already did a lot of testing in NYC and it is a great market. It makes sense. I think we could see Waymo expand ride-hailing to NYC towards the end of 2023.
 
I like the optimism of Waymo, but I'll still put in the peanuts category / over hyped. Long ways to go still. How long before they reach 100 cities?

I think it will be awhile before they reach 100 cities. But just because they are a long way from reaching 100 cities does not mean that they have not made significant progress so far. I prefer to focus on how far AVs have come rather than how far we still have to go. Plus, Waymo can create significant value to a majority of Americans long before they reach 100 cities.
 
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: GSP and scottf200
Why is the driver adjusting the cruise control here? Anyone posit?
We can infer It is not a "cruise control" button as the cruise speed never changes, the driver presses the button twice before and after crossing puddles which could be some kind of report or record button repurposed by Waymo. Just my guess.
 
We can infer It is not a "cruise control" button as the cruise speed never changes, the driver presses the button twice before and after crossing puddles which could be some kind of report or record button repurposed by Waymo. Just my guess.

From the little I see, the driver presses in the button and also pushes it up / down as well.

But your explanation is probable.
 
We can infer It is not a "cruise control" button as the cruise speed never changes, the driver presses the button twice before and after crossing puddles which could be some kind of report or record button repurposed by Waymo. Just my guess.

A report button makes sense since he presses the button when waymo hits the puddle. Waymo is probably collecting data on puddles and rain for their validation. As you point out, the cruise speed does not change. So we can definitely rule out cruise control.
 
A report button makes sense since he presses the button when waymo hits the puddle. Waymo is probably collecting data on puddles and rain for their validation. As you point out, the cruise speed does not change. So we can definitely rule out cruise control.

I've done this (as a software developer but not in the automated driving field). A single button to state "this is of interest" which flags a time window or geographic area in the data recorded for later review. This may have been an area where we wanted additional data or something that could be handled better. Marking it in near real-time is easier than trying to dig through everything recorded later on.
 

Lots of ways. For example, if they did L4 highway on a major automaker brand or if they had 100,000 driverless robotaxis across top 50 US cities.

And I know that top 50 US cities might not be the majority of US population but it would be still be significant value. Heck just the top 20 US cities would be NYC, LA, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, Philadelphia, San Antonio, San Diego, Dallas, San Jose, Austin, Jacksonville, Fort Worth, Columbus, Indianapolis, Charlotte, San Francisco, Seattle, Denver and Oklahoma City. If Waymo offered 24/7 driverless rides in all those cities, and I mean the entire city, not a geofence piece of the city, that would be huge significant value IMO.
 
Last edited:
Plus, Waymo can create significant value to a majority of Americans long before they reach 100 cities.
Lots of ways. For example, if they did L4 highway on a major automaker brand or if they had 100,000 driverless robotaxis across top 50 US cities.

Thats the kind of statement a politician would make. 100k driverless robotaxis across top 50 cities only created "value" for Google. Except in edge cases I don't see how a robotaxi is creating better value for riders than Uber/Lyft.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doggydogworld
Except in edge cases I don't see how a robotaxi is creating better value for riders than Uber/Lyft.

If the robotaxi were cheaper and/or more convenient with better wait times, it would offer better value than Uber/Lyft. And robotaxis by definition already offer privacy from not having a human driver which is value over Uber/Lyft. If Waymo were cheaper and offered competitive wait times, that would offer better value than Uber/Lyft.

But that is precisely why robotaxi companies like Waymo have a bigger challenge than just creating autonomous driving that goes from A to B. They also need to create a robotaxi service that the public will pick over Uber/Lyft. To do that, the robotaxis have to be cheaper, more convenient, with shorter wait times, comfortable, and get to the destination on time. It is one reason why scaling is taking longer than we thought. Scaling robotaxis is more than just the tech of autonomous driving.
 
Last edited:
If the robotaxi were cheaper and/or more convenient with better wait times, it would offer better value than Uber/Lyft. And robotaxis by definition already offer privacy from not having a human driver which is value over Uber/Lyft. If Waymo were cheaper and offered competitive wait times, that would offer better value than Uber/Lyft.
I'm not sure how much additional privacy it provides, given they pretty much all have and need to have cabin cameras. They also have microphones too to speak to support (which you can only trust them not to turn on when not doing so). The people more paranoid about privacy may argue it's worse for privacy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doggydogworld
Plus, Waymo can create significant value to a majority of Americans long before they reach 100 cities.
Lots of ways. For example, ..... if they had 100,000 driverless robotaxis across top 50 US cities.
Even at 50k revenue miles/year (100k total miles vs. 70k for Manhattan taxis) that's only 5 billion useful miles per year. Less than 0.2% of US VMT. That's a far cry from "significant value to a majority of Americans".

Furthermore, spreading 100k Waymos over 50 cities would be a colossal mistake, IMHO. (So that's exactly what Waymo will do, ha.... /s)

LA has ~100k Uber/Lyft drivers. Almost all work during surge pricing peaks, so you need 100k Robos to displace Uber/Lyft. 2k or even 5k Robos is a sub-scale, loser business model. It also provides no user benefit. You can't cut prices until you scale -- that's just Econ 101. Otherwise it'd be like Tesla cutting 3/Y to $25k tomorrow -- the only result would be ridiculously long waits and scalping, along with less cash flow to fund growth.

Waymo must first figure out how to displace Uber/Lyft in one city. They can then replicate that model in other cities. The resulting scale economies will allow them to think about chasing the big fish -- displacing 2nd/3rd car ownersihp in city+suburb metro areas. That will "provide significant value to a majority of Americans".

But that's many years away. That's world class sprinting, Waymo still hasn't figured out how to crawl.
 
Even at 50k revenue miles/year (100k total miles vs. 70k for Manhattan taxis) that's only 5 billion useful miles per year. Less than 0.2% of US VMT. That's a far cry from "significant value to a majority of Americans".

Furthermore, spreading 100k Waymos over 50 cities would be a colossal mistake, IMHO. (So that's exactly what Waymo will do, ha.... /s)

LA has ~100k Uber/Lyft drivers. Almost all work during surge pricing peaks, so you need 100k Robos to displace Uber/Lyft. 2k or even 5k Robos is a sub-scale, loser business model. It also provides no user benefit. You can't cut prices until you scale -- that's just Econ 101. Otherwise it'd be like Tesla cutting 3/Y to $25k tomorrow -- the only result would be ridiculously long waits and scalping, along with less cash flow to fund growth.
Waymo must first figure out how to displace Uber/Lyft in one city. They can then replicate that model in other cities. The resulting scale economies will allow them to think about chasing the big fish -- displacing 2nd/3rd car ownersihp in city+suburb metro areas. Thatwill "provide significant value to a majority of Americans".

What you are suggesting would be a terrible approach. It would likely mean spending billions and years just on one city. And there is no guarantee it would even work to displace Uber/Lyft. Waymo could have thousands of robotaxis that take up a big share but still not completely displace Uber/Lyft. And even if they did displace Uber/Lyft in one city, after years and billions of dollars, without robust and generalized FSD, they would not be able to replicate the model in other cities that easily since the autonomous driving would not work as well in the other city and require more testing and validation. So with your approach, they would spend billions and years just to scale one city at a time. That would not provide significant value and it would be a sure fire way to go under.

You seem to be forgetting that Waymo is not a robotaxi company. They don't need to displace Uber/Lyft. Waymo is a tech company, developing autonomous driving. Robotaxis are just one product. Ultimately, Waymo wants a portfolio of AV products including robotaxis, autonomous deliveries, trucking and even consumer cars some day. I believe ride-hailing is just a placeholder, a means to an end, because robotaxis are a good way of testing and deploying the tech while it is still in development. I believe they will also license their tech to consumer cars once the autonomous driving is sufficiently robust and generalized enough. Just focusing on robotaxis would be a mistake because it is thinking too small. If you just do robotaxis, yeah, you might get a decent share of the ride-hailing market but you will probably never displace Uber/Lyft completely. Focusing all your effort on displacing Uber/Lyft is shortsighted.

Waymo's stated goal is to develop robust, generalized autonomous driving that works in any city, on any vehicle. I believe that is the right goal because once you have that, you can do any AV product you want, from robotaxis, to autonomous trucks, to autonomous delivery, to self-driving consumer cars and they will work anywhere. You will get a much bigger share of the market and offer much broader value to the public than if you just do robotaxis.

And I believe Waymo has the right approach: use robotaxis to develop the tech, spread out to get your autonomous driving working robustly in diverse ODD towards that goal of generalized FSD. Once Waymo has robust, generalized autonomous driving, they can basically print money because they can do multiple AV business models anywhere and on any vehicle.

Waymo still hasn't figured out how to crawl.

Disagree. Crawling was Chandler. Waymo is way past crawling now. Waymo is jogging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bladerskb
Mobileye announces collaboration to manufacture their HD radar for consumer cars. Production is targeted for 2 years from now.


This might not sound that big but automotive grade HD radar is key for L4 on consumer cars. And 2 years from now would coincide nicely with Mobileye's stated timeline of L4 consumer cars in 2025. So this deal could be a key part of getting to L4 consumer cars in the next few years.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: scottf200
What you are suggesting would be a terrible approach. It would likely mean spending billions and years just on one city.
They spend billions anyway. If it takes years to ramp a city they've got big problems.

And there is no guarantee it would even work to displace Uber/Lyft.
Some business models don't work. You have to figure that out quickly, so you can pivot. 15 years timidly going down the wrong road is certain death.

Waymo could have thousands of robotaxis that take up a big share but still not completely displace Uber/Lyft.
Displace doesn't mean eradicate.

..... without robust and generalized FSD, they would not be able to replicate the model in other cities that easily since the autonomous driving would not work as well in the other city and require more testing and validation.
They've tested in multiple cities for years. This will obviously continue. You're repeatedly said the Waymo Driver that resulted from this approach is sufficiently generalized.

So with your approach, they would spend billions and years just to scale one city at a time. That would not provide significant value and it would be a sure fire way to go under.
Not one city at a time. One city to prove the business model. Then you're bankable and can ramp many cities simultaneously.

You seem to be forgetting that Waymo is not a robotaxi company.
Waymo is not a company at all, so far. Just a 15 year old R&D lab/cash incinerator.

Waymo chose Robotaxi as their first product. If they can't find a path toward profit they need to ditch Robotaxi and focus on their other efforts.

Ultimately, Waymo wants a portfolio of AV products including robotaxis, autonomous deliveries, trucking and even consumer cars some day.
They have to get to "Ultimately". The winning business model can fund the most R&D, and end up with the dominant technology. Right now only Tesla has a working business model. If they were actually serious about Robotaxi they'd be a serious threat.

Just focusing on robotaxis would be a mistake because it is thinking too small.
In the Seba/Musk worldview Robotaxi takes over everything and there are no meaningful consumer carmakers left to license to. I don't subscribe to that worldview, but nobody knows for sure how it will play out. Waymo is in a position to find out. But not if they blow another five years spreading 100k cars across 50 cities.

If you just do robotaxis, yeah, you might get a decent share of the ride-hailing market but you will probably never displace Uber/Lyft completely. Focusing all your effort on displacing Uber/Lyft is shortsighted.
I clearly said displacing Uber/Lyft would create enough scale to pursue the "big fish".

Disagree. Crawling was Chandler. Waymo is way past crawling now. Waymo is jogging.
You're talking about the tech, I'm talking about the business. They've had the tech for years.