Autopilot: Crashed at 40mph

[brianman]

the level of knee jerk defense of Tesla around here gets to be kind of silly.

You're characterizing my post as such? Wow.

 

[calisnow]

Great, thanks. I look forward to it. I found their web UI kind of yuck (rich on pictures, low on content and readability), so I don't plan to do much more searching.

The whole presentation is good, but for the info relevant to our discussion skip to 8:30 and watch the next few minutes: this is a description of the advancement in Daimler's next generation ADAS systems which are launching now in the 2017 E class:

Download Proceedings: MathWorks Automotive Conference 2015, 24 September, Stuttgart, Germany

That link will take you to a web page - click on the video on the left of the page which is Dr. Eberhard Zee's presentation entitled "implementing autonomous cars"

That is where Daimler makes the claim of complete collision avoidance from 90 kmph - and also claims the system will make calculations on whether or not evasive action is possible - and if not the system will begin braking much earlier than the 2016 Benzes do.

Here is a description of the 2017 enhancements to existing Benz ADAS systems:

"Active Brake Assist: Enhancements to this existing system detect slower, braking, or stationary vehicles, and now also identify cross traffic at intersections, stopped traffic ahead, and pedestrians in danger ahead of the vehicle. It will warn the driver of dangerous situations, apply appropriate brake force to avert an accident when the driver brakes suddenly, or brake automatically itself in an emergency.

Evasive Steering Assist: This system calculates and supplies the necessary torque when the driver suddenly steers to avoid an accident, most notably a pedestrian who has moved into the line of travel."

And the hardware Benz is using in the 2017 model:

2017 Mercedes-Benz E-Class To Expand Safety, Self-Driving, Self-Parking Capabilities: Video

"The Sensor Fusion previously introduced now incorporates no fewer than 23 sensors: 12 ultrasonic (six at the front, six at the rear), four multi-mode radar (one at each corner), four cameras (front, rear, and one in each door mirror), a long-range radar up front, a stereo multipurpose camera at the top of the windshield, and a sensor for steering column position as well."

 

[calisnow]

Tesla has done amazing things in software with the relatively sparse sensor setup in the current Model S - it will be interesting to see what Autopilot 2.0 hardware brings - I know that I, for one, will be getting it as soon as it comes out.

 

[calisnow]

You're characterizing my post as such? Wow.

Not you in particular - I shouldn't have put that line in the post.

 

[calisnow]

Screen grab from video - again this is not a description of what the 2016 and earlier Benzes can do - this is 2017 E class.

 

[iffatall]

Quick follow-up, some more info on when AEB will not apply from the manual:



Note the 3rd point. If you press the brakes, that doesn't cancel AEB. Press and release of the brakes does.

Now this makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[Cosmacelf]

It has always given me alert tones and message on the screen when it turns off... have you had a different experience?

WRT the car turning off AP. Presumably the car did give that little tone when turning off. There is no message on the screen, however, when it turns off, at least in my software rev. All that happens is a small icon turns from blue to gray. The tone can easily be missed due to freeway noise and focusing attention on the guy coming into your lane which caused you to move the steering wheel ever so slightly too hard which caused the AP to switch off. That subtle tone is easily missed. Note that I don't usually have my radio on, in which case it would be hard to miss because it mutes the audio to play the tone.

The other bizarre thing about Tesla AP is that the design of the whole UI seems to think that you should be looking at the center console screen and interpreting the data. Which is really dangerous to do since you should be looking at the road to anticipate conditions for which AP will fail in (road debris, cars suddenly cutting you off, parked cars partially in your lane, lane closures, construction, etc.)

 

[mspohr]

WRT the car turning off AP. Presumably the car did give that little tone when turning off. There is no message on the screen, however, when it turns off, at least in my software rev. All that happens is a small icon turns from blue to gray. The tone can easily be missed due to freeway noise and focusing attention on the guy coming into your lane which caused you to move the steering wheel ever so slightly too hard which caused the AP to switch off. That subtle tone is easily missed. Note that I don't usually have my radio on, in which case it would be hard to miss because it mutes the audio to play the tone.

The other bizarre thing about Tesla AP is that the design of the whole UI seems to think that you should be looking at the center console screen and interpreting the data. Which is really dangerous to do since you should be looking at the road to anticipate conditions for which AP will fail in (road debris, cars suddenly cutting you off, parked cars partially in your lane, lane closures, construction, etc.)

So... would it be better if nothing was displayed on the screen?

 

[TSLA Pilot]

While I've not read every post in the thread, with my HF Engineering background, I do have to concur with many here that the current iteration of AP is half-baked. It would have cost very little, in both engineering time and actual production cost, to have a small bank of LED's placed in or near the IP top panel so as to blink when AP was disengaged. As it is now, the current indications are far too subtle and easily missed, especially when some circumstances require a much more robust alert.

(And, personally, I just wish it would stop trying to kill me, but that might just be our cars?)

 

[mspohr]

So... now we have votes for more information on the display and less information on the display.

 

[Cosmacelf]

So... would it be better if nothing was displayed on the screen?

WRT AP being on and off: It would be better if there were more audible cues and louder ones. And if the visual cues were much bigger and more obvious.

For instance, when AP is on, the IC needs to look SUBSTANTIALLY different then when it is off so that you can tell at a very quick glance whether it is on or not.

When the AP turns off, there should be an actual person's voice that says "Warning, AP has turned off, please take control" or something like that.

Also when AP turns off, the IC and the 17" display should momentarily turn RED and display a pop up that says "AP OFF" and maybe even stay in that state for several seconds or until you press a steering wheel button.

Look, this isn't something very controversial. The airline safety industry knows this problem well - occasionally accidents or near accidents occur because trained pilots don't realize which state the Autopilot is in.

BTW, I forgot to mention yet another way in which AP can turn off - by inadvertently hitting the AP stalk - easy to do by accident, you are moving your hands, and you accident push the stalk backwards. AP turns off when you aren't expecting it.

 

[Cosmacelf]

So... now we have votes for more information on the display and less information on the display.

When you state things like this, please indicate who you are referring to. I believe you might be referring to my comment about having less info on the display? If so, you completely missed my point, see my entry just above this one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

WRT the car turning off AP. Presumably the car did give that little tone when turning off. There is no message on the screen, however, when it turns off, at least in my software rev. All that happens is a small icon turns from blue to gray. The tone can easily be missed due to freeway noise and focusing attention on the guy coming into your lane which caused you to move the steering wheel ever so slightly too hard which caused the AP to switch off. That subtle tone is easily missed. Note that I don't usually have my radio on, in which case it would be hard to miss because it mutes the audio to play the tone.

The other bizarre thing about Tesla AP is that the design of the whole UI seems to think that you should be looking at the center console screen and interpreting the data. Which is really dangerous to do since you should be looking at the road to anticipate conditions for which AP will fail in (road debris, cars suddenly cutting you off, parked cars partially in your lane, lane closures, construction, etc.)

This is a balance between alert and annoyance. Given how AP can frequently disengage, having the warning be intrusive can be extremely annoying, especially on the long trips AP is frequently used on. Tesla has to find a balance between the two.

 

[mspohr]

This is a balance between alert and annoyance. Given how AP can frequently disengage, having the warning be intrusive can be extremely annoying, especially on the long trips AP is frequently used on. Tesla has to find a balance between the two.

Yes, I agree that it is difficult to find the right balance between alert and annoyance. Unfortunately, different people have different (strongly held) opinions about it so it's hard to resolve this and determine what it "should" be. Tesla has made a decision and fortunately, this can be changed in software. Unfortunately, if they change it some people will be upset one way or another.

 

[JenniferQ]

WRT AP being on and off: It would be better if there were more audible cues and louder ones. And if the visual cues were much bigger and more obvious.

For instance, when AP is on, the IC needs to look SUBSTANTIALLY different then when it is off so that you can tell at a very quick glance whether it is on or not.

When the AP turns off, there should be an actual person's voice that says "Warning, AP has turned off, please take control" or something like that.

Also when AP turns off, the IC and the 17" display should momentarily turn RED and display a pop up that says "AP OFF" and maybe even stay in that state for several seconds or until you press a steering wheel button.

Look, this isn't something very controversial. The airline safety industry knows this problem well - occasionally accidents or near accidents occur because trained pilots don't realize which state the Autopilot is in.

BTW, I forgot to mention yet another way in which AP can turn off - by inadvertently hitting the AP stalk - easy to do by accident, you are moving your hands, and you accident push the stalk backwards. AP turns off when you aren't expecting it.

While I understand some of your frustration, I disagree heartily that there should be an audible warning every time AP is turned off. It's bad enough that there's a beep every time it's turned off, imo. One thing I really love about the Tesla is the ability to mute the NAV instructions rather permanently and not having to do it each time I use NAV as on my MBZ. I love the silence of my car and any more noisy intrusions would not be welcome. So, Tesla, if you are "watching" please give us an option to opt out of audible notifications if they are indeed added in a future update.

 

[mspohr]

While I understand some of your frustration, I disagree heartily that there should be an audible warning every time AP is turned off. It's bad enough that there's a beep every time it's turned off, imo. One thing I really love about the Tesla is the ability to mute the NAV instructions rather permanently and not having to do it each time I use NAV as on my MBZ. I love the silence of my car and any more noisy intrusions would not be welcome. So, Tesla, if you are "watching" please give us an option to opt out of audible notifications if they are indeed added in a future update.

I have to agree. I think the current system of visual and audible alerts is certainly enough to keep me informed of the status of AP. I would not want more intrusive alerts. I do get tired of the beeping when the AP turns off and on. I can easily tell from the dash display if AP is on (both from the icon at the top and the AP blue lines). I do pay attention to the display as well as the road. Not sure if I would appreciate flashing red screens.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I have to agree. I think the current system of visual and audible alerts is certainly enough to keep me informed of the status of AP. I would not want more intrusive alerts. I do get tired of the beeping when the AP turns off and on. I can easily tell from the dash display if AP is on (both from the icon at the top and the AP blue lines). I do pay attention to the display as well as the road. Not sure if I would appreciate flashing red screens.

Quite the irony of this given that this thread started by an incident where a car CRASHED due to the driver not realizing AP was no longer active. Either Tesla will make the AP on/off state more obvious or the regulators will do it for them.

 

[Ivo-G]

Quite the irony of this given that this thread started by an incident where a car CRASHED due to the driver not realizing AP was no longer active. Either Tesla will make the AP on/off state more obvious or the regulators will do it for them.

In my case the AP was very much on and the TACC's desire to return to the previously set speed helped to shorten the time and distance available to handle the fact that the radar wasn't going to see the almost stationary cars in time for TACC to intervene.

Having a switch in the driver profile that allows the driver to have a more present notification of it being on or off (visually and/or audibly, preferably separately settable) would be quite easy to implement IMO, and would make the car more customizable.

 

[mspohr]

Quite the irony of this given that this thread started by an incident where a car CRASHED due to the driver not realizing AP was no longer active. Either Tesla will make the AP on/off state more obvious or the regulators will do it for them.

I thought the thread was started by a person claiming that the AP was on and accelerating when someone pulled in front of him.

 

[Az_Rael]

Arianna Simpson was driving her Model S north from Los Angeles on I-5, cruising in autopilot mode. "All of a sudden the car ahead of me came to a halt. There was a decent amount of space so I figured that the car was going to brake as it is supposed to and didn't brake immediately. When it became apparent that the car was not slowing down at all, I slammed on the brakes but was probably still going 40 when I collided with the other car,"

I thought the thread was started by a person claiming that the AP was on and accelerating when someone pulled in front of him.

It is hard to keep track of them, but this thread is about the I5 incident where the driver didn't realize she had disengaged AP and AEB