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Battery defect for IT brainstorming BMS_u029 - P85 MS 2013

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(Edit: Actually, I've just reached out to Tesla directly to note that there are plans to try and circumvent this safety mechanism and the diagnostic/debug methods to get around it should be patched out ASAP.)

Tesla really does need to make these APIs available, at least under license, whether through Toolbox or some other means. The existing latch/unlatch mechanisms are clunky/unreliable, and there are plenty of legit use cases for that level of access.

We’ve been in the automotive space for over 25 years - embedded systems, telematics and power electronics. It’s still early days for Tesla, they will get there.
 
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At best, it'll make Tesla patch it out and make any such device useless anyway. (Edit: Actually, I've just reached out to Tesla directly to note that there are plans to try and circumvent this safety mechanism and the diagnostic/debug methods to get around it should be patched out ASAP.)
Wonder if this is your doing :)
 

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While I'm not 100% sure it's the right thing to do, the only incentive I think I can provide for people like this to not try and profit from destroying people's property would be to just publicly release an open-source method for resetting the error.

So I think that will be my nuclear deterrent. Don't waste effort trying to sell this. If people want to blow up their cars, I'll just tell them how to do it for free.

At best, it'll make Tesla patch it out and make any such device useless anyway. (Edit: Actually, I've just reached out to Tesla directly to note that there are plans to try and circumvent this safety mechanism and the diagnostic/debug methods to get around it should be patched out ASAP.)
@wk057 What were the results of your reach out to Tesla you mentioned in this Feb 2023 response? Based on my recent personal conversation with a member of my Tesla BMS_u029/BMS_u018 | Facebook, owner had his alert reset remotely from Dubai. All seems to be to normal for that owner.

Further, BMS_u029 Device - $750.00 : HybridReVolt: Hybrid Battery Repair is now advertised on line. Thx. @ce2078
 
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Clearly my engagement is being exploited to expand the reach of this "device" (which doesn't even appear to be listed on the associated website without a direct link? sketchy... why not publicly advertise this on the site if it's a 100% legit service? Oh, right...), and otherwise continue the push of potentially dangerous and incorrect advice around "resetting" BMS errors (to what end, I don't know at this point) let me be very clear AGAIN:

Using any "device" or other means to "reset" a BMS error WITHOUT FIRST CORRECTING THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM will NOT fix any issue. PERIOD.

One more time for the people in the back row:

Using any "device" or other means to "reset" a BMS error WITHOUT FIRST CORRECTING THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM will NOT fix any issue. PERIOD.

Come on people, use your brains.

If all it took was resetting an error to fix the problem, don't you think that's what Tesla would be doing? Don't you think that's what I would be doing and charging $X to people? The process to "reset" the error takes 2 minutes and doesn't even require any special hardware, either (well, not if you know what you're doing, anyway). 99% of Tesla owners would already have what they need to do this the easy way, and the other 1% could find what they need at a local store for under $20.

I would absolutely love it if this were the case. I could just have my staff walk people through the process on the phone at no charge. Heck, I'd probably just publish a quick HOW-TO on it and be done with it, as a public goodwill measure.

I mean really, my company sells extended service plans on Tesla battery packs. If all it took was a reset of this error to fix the problem I'd be saving a ton of money doing this instead of pack replacements.

Hand to God, I'd be the first person on this forum, Twitter, and elsewhere calling Tesla out for scamming people into expensive out-of-warranty repairs that they didn't need if that were the case and everyone here knows it. Those tweets would do serious numbers, too. The last thread I did calling out Tesla on some scammy BS got nearly 20 million engagements and a "wtf" text from a well known dogecoin proponent..... as well as a near immediate resolution to that issue, by the way.

Seriously, if resetting this error were a real fix for anything, I'd do it FOR FREE for anyone who needed it, no questions asked. But it isn't.

The only part of my earlier conversation with Tesla I'll share publicly is to note that they're "well aware" this is being done by scammers, and they are automatically flagging vehicles in Garage (their internal system) that are getting these bogus resets done.... and let's just say I 100% approve of their reasoning for doing so and will leave it at that. (Tesla: 1, Scammers: 0)

Don't be scammed. I can't fault people who are in a sh** situation facing an expensive repair for looking at other options. At the same time people really need to look at this with some sense. The old "if it's too good to be true" saying definitely applies, as well as "a fool and his money were lucky to have met in the first place."

I mainly feel for the people on the receiving end of this, because as far as I can tell many people are using this "reset" to commit outright fraud to misrepresent the vehicle and push it on an unsuspecting buyer... many of whom I'm assisting with log deciphering and interpretation as part of their legal cases (one of which just settled out of court for the price of a pack replacement, btw). No reasonable person doing this has any way to claim it's anything other than fraud. Again, the whole too-good-to-be-true thing.

Bottom line when it comes to this "reset" nonsense: You're either getting scammed, or you're trying to scam someone else. There's no in between. You're being scammed, or you're being a scammer.

Edit: Typos.
 
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Indeed, that link should not be promoted at all. Unfortunately a lot of people will stretch to get a used model S and will search to find cheap solutions for this failures :(
Would be interesting to see a battery failure on a car with mcu2 where this option is available now under service menu:
 

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The only part of my earlier conversation with Tesla I'll share publicly is to note that they're "well aware" this is being done by scammers, and they are automatically flagging vehicles in Garage (their internal system) that are getting these bogus resets done....
I guess it is good that Tesla is flagging those vehicles, but what does that really gain Tesla? Does that mean they won't take the pack as a core any longer? If someone is buying a used Model S can they call Tesla and ask if it has been flagged in Garage? (i.e. is Tesla helping to prevent people from being scammed, or are they only looking out for themselves on this issue?)
 
I guess it is good that Tesla is flagging those vehicles, but what does that really gain Tesla? Does that mean they won't take the pack as a core any longer? If someone is buying a used Model S can they call Tesla and ask if it has been flagged in Garage? (i.e. is Tesla helping to prevent people from being scammed, or are they only looking out for themselves on this issue?)

I don't have exact details on the why, probably because there's likely some liability there if they say the wrong thing, but the reasoning does seem to be positive all around, and should be useful for shutting down many of the scammers, especially companies preying on folks who don't know any better. 🤞
 
Do you mean using this option might trigger a failed pack message if the issue exists but not yet flagged by BMS?
I think it could go both ways. If a pack is close to failure it might trigger it (as we seen few errors popped during ownership transfers) or if the pack already has the error could clear it (very low probability in case of a false positive) or just immobilize the car.
As I am out of warranty won’t try it :)
 
I think it could go both ways. If a pack is close to failure it might trigger it (as we seen few errors popped during ownership transfers) or if the pack already has the error could clear it (very low probability in case of a false positive) or just immobilize the car.
As I am out of warranty won’t try it :)

The factory reset the owners do during the ownership transfers does not reset the BMS, or does it? I thought it only resets the ownership specific configs.
 
While I'm not 100% sure it's the right thing to do, the only incentive I think I can provide for people like this to not try and profit from destroying people's property would be to just publicly release an open-source method for resetting the error.

So I think that will be my nuclear deterrent. Don't waste effort trying to sell this. If people want to blow up their cars, I'll just tell them how to do it for free.

At best, it'll make Tesla patch it out and make any such device useless anyway. (Edit: Actually, I've just reached out to Tesla directly to note that there are plans to try and circumvent this safety mechanism and the diagnostic/debug methods to get around it should be patched out ASAP.)
So why are you not telling the public how to do it? You already told Tesla...

While i agree that this would help a lot of folks, but disclosing everything to Tesla is what's hurting DIY/salvage community. Tesla will lock everyone out of doing any major repairs...
How would you like if they patched you out of your upgrades/swaps?..
 
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So why are you not telling the public how to do it? You already told Tesla...

While i agree that this would help a lot of folks, but disclosing everything to Tesla is what's hurting DIY/salvage community. Tesla will lock everyone out of doing any major repairs...
How would you like if they patched you out of your upgrades/swaps?..
My assumption is because it's a bad idea. I believe Jason used the analog of resetting and negating the alert is akin to removing the batteries of a smoke detector after the alarm is blaring. The point of the smoke alarm (BMS alert) is to let you know there's a problem detected and investigation/mitigation should be the next step...not disabling the alarm.
 
Tale of Two Errors and Why Not to Reset BMS_u029

Here’s something Recell has been working on that we thought was really important to share

Attached is a graphic showing four modules - two from separate battery packs that came to us with a BMS_u029 / Weak Short error and two, again from separate battery packs, that came to us with a BMS_u018 / Capacity Imbalance error

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What they illustrate is something quite remarkable. each of the red dots is a cell that is self-discharging, in fact self-discharging at a quite a rapid rate, as much as 20 mV per HOUR or more, to the point that when isolated from the rest of the brick, these cells are completely discharged within 16 hours, and not just 0% SoC, but 0V period. (a more typical discharge rate for a healthy cell would be <0.5 mV per DAY, literally a thousand times slower)

You’ll notice of course that the red dots are only on the left-hand side in the BMS_u029 column, while there are none on the right-hand side in the BMS_u018 column. that’s not a coincidence.

(we should note for the record that these modules are not unique. we have seen this EXACT same behavior across dozens and dozens of modules, just like these)

What’s curious is that the both the BMS_u029 and BMS_u018 modules have noticeable capacity imbalances, as much as 15 Ah or more in the case of the two BMS_u018 modules, but they have two VERY different failure modes.

In the case of the BMS_u018 modules, the cells themselves work perfectly fine with very very little self discharge and can soldier on - they are just tired and worn with less capacity than they once had, but otherwise perfectly operational. in fact, they can be repurposed/recycled for ‘secondary use’, just not in their current configuration as a Model S battery module.

In the case of the BMS__u029 modules, however, each one of these red dots represents a potential runaway thermal event 😲

quite aside from looking like it has chicken pox, the top left module is actually quite shocking to realize - you would never ever want this module sitting in your pack. and the last thing you should be doing is resetting BMS errors on it. 😲😲

but even the lower left module has the one cell, lying in wait. all it takes is one of these cells to short and you’ve got a potential runaway thermal event.

perhaps what’s more impressive is that the BMS is able to identify even this one cell and flag it as a potential short, and then latch the error to prevent the condition from inadvertently being reset or overlooked during some unrelated firmware update, system reboot, etc.

What’s more, the BMS is able to differentiate cells with potential for a weak short from worn and tired cells with a capacity imbalance, and identify them as just that, worn and tired, but really nothing more. in fact, should the charge balance happen to improve between charging cycles, the BMS will clear the BMS_u018 error and happily return the battery to its normal, albeit diminished, operation.

so…. a couple of key takeaways

1) Tesla is NOT bricking these packs with an OTA software update, slipping something in while upgrading your MCU, or arbitrarily increasing some threshold limit. these BMS_u029 weak short conditions in the current BMS firmware are real and they are for YOUR safety — we’ve seen this behavior in ALL of the BMS_u029 packs we get in. we literally have stacks of these modules that have have been reprocessed and decommissioned - each with identical results. The BMS_u029 modules have self-discharging cells, and the BMS_u018 cells are worn and tired, but nothing more, just worn and tired.

* we start the decommissioning process by ripping off the collector plates, as we have in the attached photos, to isolate each cell, and we then dismantle the module as appropriate to repurpose any good cells for secondary use.

2) it’s really really really important that these BMS_u029 errors NOT be reset without addressing the underlying root cause (by completely REMOVING and decommissioning the module in question). Even just one of these cells has the potential to cause a thermal runaway event if charged above 50%.

We can’t say it enough, and we hope this illustrates why, these BMS_u029 errors should NOT be reset.
 

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This is what happend to module charged to 100% after clearing error by customer and some workshop…. Module brick overcharged to 4.3v. Luckly no fire of entire battery. Just thermal runaway from one cell. PLEASE STOP EXPERIMENTING WITH YOUR CARS!!! Let your car be repaired by Profesional! i.e.
US - wk057,Recell, Gruber
EU - rosamotors.de
 

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Typical BMS_u018 issue

one quick note/refinement on the u018 errors and what that Venn diagram looks like. most all BMB malfunctions will trigger a BMS_u018 alert, but not all u018 errors will be triggered by a BMB malfunction - as some will be triggered by pure capacity imbalance. a big giveaway is usually whether the car is drivable or not. if it's still drivable, it's likely a good old fashioned capacity imbalance - the BMS is restricting charge capacity, but it’s still drivable. if it's not drivable, for example, because of some wildly inaccurate BMB reading, the BMS will just shut everything down. 😐
 
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This is what happend to module charged to 100% after clearing error by customer and some workshop…. Module brick overcharged to 4.3v. Luckly no fire of entire battery. Just thermal runaway from one cell. PLEASE STOP EXPERIMENTING WITH YOUR CARS!!! Let your car be repaired by Profesional! i.e.
US - wk057,Recell, Gruber
EU - rosamotors.de
Professional and gruber in same sentence 😂😂

PS, its really impressive to see that such thermal runaway didn't burn down the whole car...
 
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