Best Tires/Wheels for Tracking Model 3

[jyalpert]

While I didn't chalk there is no doubt where the tires were being worn after a 20 - 30 minute session.

Ha fair enough!

How has the charging situation been for you? I've been trying to see how to get a track day done in my Model 3 and I just can't figure out how I'd be able to get through 5-7 sessions (I've got a SR RWD). My two home tracks are Thunderhill (no supercharger for like 100 miles) and Laguna Seca (closest supercharger is 40 minutes round trip). Thunderhill is definitely out. Laguna feels iffy. Plus, usually I spend time between sessions resting, drinking water, and making adjustments to the car, so I wasn't sure if the entire day would be a mad scramble of range anxiety?

 

[MoreAgain]

Ha fair enough!

How has the charging situation been for you? I've been trying to see how to get a track day done in my Model 3 and I just can't figure out how I'd be able to get through 5-7 sessions (I've got a SR RWD). My two home tracks are Thunderhill (no supercharger for like 100 miles) and Laguna Seca (closest supercharger is 40 minutes round trip). Thunderhill is definitely out. Laguna feels iffy. Plus, usually I spend time between sessions resting, drinking water, and making adjustments to the car, so I wasn't sure if the entire day would be a mad scramble of range anxiety?

Get to Laguna Seca for the TeslaCorsa/ReFuel weekend (June 28-30) Speed Ventures - Track Event Detailed Information
They will have charging available onsite. Also make the long trek down to Buttonwillow or Willow Springs. Both have nearby Superchargers. I know it is a long way, as it is about the same distance for me to get there from San Diego, but I think it is worth it.

 

[Zippy_EV]

Ha fair enough!

How has the charging situation been for you? I've been trying to see how to get a track day done in my Model 3 and I just can't figure out how I'd be able to get through 5-7 sessions (I've got a SR RWD). My two home tracks are Thunderhill (no supercharger for like 100 miles) and Laguna Seca (closest supercharger is 40 minutes round trip). Thunderhill is definitely out. Laguna feels iffy. Plus, usually I spend time between sessions resting, drinking water, and making adjustments to the car, so I wasn't sure if the entire day would be a mad scramble of range anxiety?

Charging is a hassle. My home track has 20A @ 120V outlets (aka 16A charging.) Barely better than nothing. For the typical events I have two sessions in the morning, then I supercharge at lunch (~20 min drive to the supercharger and another ~20 min back) and do two sessions in the afternoon. At the supercharger I charge to ~95 percent so I can make it back to the track at ~88 percent. Each session can use ~45 percent of a 75 kWh battery as the consumption is ~1100 - 1300 Wh / mi. I arrive home with between 1 and 5 percent.

I made a spreadsheet for a track event with 6 sessions and determined that even with 40A mobile charging at the track supercharging was mandatory at lunch to be able to do all the sessions. (I got tired of making the spreadsheet more general but it is at least a start for others to make a copy and edit):
Tesla 3 track charging

 

[destructure00]

even with 40A mobile charging at the track supercharging was mandatory at lunch to be able to do all the sessions.

Same conclusion here. My first track day had 14-50 outlets available on site, but with a 20 minute session depleting between 40-48% of the battery, and 32 amp charging adding about 10% per hour, I'd have to charge for 4-5 hours to replenish a single session. The math just doesn't work out without supercharging on a longer break. Only other option I had was to skip a session and stay charging on site.

 

[Visionary]

Yes you can. MPP is running a set of Advan RG6.

I saw that, but they drilled the 12mm wheels to 14mm. Would have affect the structural rigidity?. Also would the wheel nut 'seat' properly on the cone part?

 

[Zippy_EV]

Lol yes he did, and we didn't believe him! Ended up lowering them quite a bit during the day to stay under 40 hot BUT my car has camber arms installed and about -1.8 degrees of camber dialed in, so that helps prevent the sidewall rolling situation.

Did you also do the MPP rear toe arms or is there enough adjustment in the factory toe? Was it easy to get -1.8 deg camber all around? I'm curious what kind of range is possible. (I have contacted a local shop who is willing to help figure out markings so I can "easily" change between street and track alignment once I order the camber arms.)

 

[kbecks13]

Not MPP rear arms, but i did the Unplugged Performance version. They are definitely useful though i wouldn't say you absolutely need them, i'm still trying to play around with alignment settings to dial in the handling of the car - but its tough since i keep changing parts Just added a stiffer rear bar to reduce some of the understeer that was going on with Randy for example.

-1.8 camber all around will definitely require aftermarket arms (front and rear), i'm using the UP Adjustable Front UCA and it allows me to adjust camber and caster. With stock arms, i think i was maybe around -1.2ish when the car is lowered 1" and also you can't really adjust caster too much (slightly, but not really substantial). With the Unplugged front arms, i'm pretty sure i could get to like -2.5 degrees but haven't gone to full extension yet.

 

[Zippy_EV]

Not MPP rear arms, but i did the Unplugged Performance version. They are definitely useful though i wouldn't say you absolutely need them, i'm still trying to play around with alignment settings to dial in the handling of the car - but its tough since i keep changing parts Just added a stiffer rear bar to reduce some of the understeer that was going on with Randy for example.

-1.8 camber all around will definitely require aftermarket arms (front and rear), i'm using the UP Adjustable Front UCA and it allows me to adjust camber and caster. With stock arms, i think i was maybe around -1.2ish when the car is lowered 1" and also you can't really adjust caster too much (slightly, but not really substantial). With the Unplugged front arms, i'm pretty sure i could get to like -2.5 degrees but haven't gone to full extension yet.

I'm curious about that stiffer sway bar(s). One time I found the back end of the car felt unstable under heavy braking with relatively light side to side steering input. (I've since just been careful to not do that but an inexperienced driver could easily bring the car around.) I assume you have the UP sways (It says available for preorder)
Adjustable Sway Bars for Tesla Model 3 - Unplugged Performance

Interesting that you feel the car has too much understeer. Maybe I'm too forgiving. I would love to hear your thoughts post rear bar.

Are these the front arms? (It says coming soon)
Unplugged Performance Adjustable Front Upper Control Arms for Model 3

We really need a forum track section.

 

[kbecks13]

I'm curious about that stiffer sway bar(s). One time I found the back end of the car felt unstable under heavy braking with relatively light side to side steering input. (I've since just been careful to not do that but an inexperienced driver could easily bring the car around.) I assume you have the UP sways (It says available for preorder)
Adjustable Sway Bars for Tesla Model 3 - Unplugged Performance

Interesting that you feel the car has too much understeer. Maybe I'm too forgiving. I would love to hear your thoughts post rear bar.

Are these the front arms? (It says coming soon)
Unplugged Performance Adjustable Front Upper Control Arms for Model 3

We really need a forum track section.

We really do need a track section, if you use Reddit there is a sub-reddit called /r/TeslaSpeed that focuses on Tesla Track type topics btw.

Yep, i've got the UP sways (V2 with extra adjustability!) and also their front control arms (literally the ones in that pic) as i'm a beta tester for them.

So the over/under steer tendencies on the car depends on a few things, but first and foremost i would say it's the driver. Randy wanted a bit more oversteer on corner entry so he could more easily rotate the car and get it pointed where he wanted, but it certainly wasn't bad by any stretch - just something that could be improved in the pursuit of perfection.

I do agree that the car tends to push on corner entry, however i'm not too opposed to that because i'm still a relatively amateur driver myself.

I think the car is super dynamic in how it responds because of Track Mode. On entry you have some understeer, but the rear end will definitely step out if you're too quick on the throttle and not careful on corner exit.

I also had a high speed oversteer event back many months ago at the Bus Stop section at Buttonwillow. Funny enough, when Randy was out there during Tesla Corsa 3 he noticed the exact same behavior in that section of the track with the car (though he didn't spin like me lol) and he passed on some feedback to the Tesla vehicle dynamics team about it. Basically what happens is that regen is a bit too strong at high speeds and results in forward weight transfer if you lift even slightly off the throttle.

Watch this video of my spin (at ~35 seconds in) and you can see what i mean. If you watch the power graph, you'll notice that i lifted off the throttle pretty suddenly at corner apex (got scared haha), the rear end got light and around she went! Since this happened, i always remember to stay steady on the throttle to avoid upsetting the cars weight balance at critical moments.

 

[destructure00]

Wow! I bet you were shaken up a bit. I ended up in a 60 degree or so slide my last time out, thought I was going to end up going around like you, but it caught at they last minute and straightened out. No idea if SC caught it or I just got lucky.

 

[kbecks13]

Wow! I bet you were shaken up a bit. I ended up in a 60 degree or so slide my last time out, thought I was going to end up going around like you, but it caught at they last minute and straightened out. No idea if SC caught it or I just got lucky.

Haha yea, look at my eyes during/after the spin and they say it all I'm pretty sure this was my first time with Track Mode and I really didn't give it the respect it deserved! Also the RE71s are relatively quiet on track so it can be a little trickier to get a sense of where the limit is compared to a PS4S.

 

[MasterC17]

In my opinion, there is not a need for tires any wider than 275's for this car. In fact, I will likely be stepping down to 265's for my next set. Keep in mind bigger wheels and tires equals more weight, more friction/drag, worse efficiency, and slower acceleration. You can definitely go too big.

As far as track tires go, anything in the 200TW/Extreme Summer Performance category will be a big improvement over stock. Hoosier and R-Comp's sound great, but in reality don't gain you much and you sacrifice a lot (usability, traction in the wet, temperature range, price, etc).

I recommend 18x9.5" ET35 APEX EC-7's as far as wheels are concerned, though this is more of a personal preference than anything. They are strong and lightweight and I can vouch for them as this is my 3rd set and I have yet to bend/replace a single one.

Regarding Camber, it's pretty much a necessity if you are tracking your Model 3 often (unless you have cash to burn on tires every 2-3 track days). The stock camber causes tires to get eaten alive. You can tackle some of this problem just by lowering it on Coilovers.

Additionally, or in place of, you can resolve it with adjustable arms. Currently, MPP is the only one shipping control arms (rear) as far as I know.

I developed rear camber arms and the first batch is currently being manufactured. The prototypes are still on my car and 1,000 miles and 3 track days later I am very happy with the end result. They allow tons of adjustability (from stock to -3 degrees of rear camber).

My solution for the front control arms did very well in its initial beta test. I was able to get -3 degrees of front camber out of them. This is more of a fixed solution. You can choose either Stock or Offset (-1.5 degrees). From there, the suspension does allow about .5 degrees of adjustment +/-. The good news is that the adjustment between stock and offset can be done in about 10 minutes per side. The toe must also be corrected, but that is achievable even without an alignment rack.

As others have mentioned, snap oversteer is, or perhaps was, a thing in these cars. I haven't noticed it since 2019.12. It's a bit of a learning curve to get used to in relation to an ICE, but once you figure it out it's pretty intuitive. The stability algorithm in Track Mode is simply phenomenal, the more miles I get on-track with the 3 the more I love it. It does absolutely feel like it makes the car faster, it doesn't just disable safety systems, which is pretty much in line with the wording Tesla themselves use.

Glad to see more and more people tracking their Model 3. Now if we could only get Superchargers at every track in North America, I would be really happy!

 

[Zippy_EV]

In my opinion, there is not a need for tires any wider than 275's for this car. In fact, I will likely be stepping down to 265's for my next set. Keep in mind bigger wheels and tires equals more weight, more friction/drag, worse efficiency, and slower acceleration. You can definitely go too big.

As far as track tires go, anything in the 200TW/Extreme Summer Performance category will be a big improvement over stock. Hoosier and R-Comp's sound great, but in reality don't gain you much and you sacrifice a lot (usability, traction in the wet, temperature range, price, etc).

I've never had occasion to install too wide of a tire as I've been unwilling to modify the fenders. Within "what fits" wider has always been better, IME.

I've run Hoosiers R6 and Wet H20 on another car and they're glorious on track. (glorious = an extra ~.25 - .3 G's worth of cornering compared to summer performance tires albeit street tires have really improved though I assume R-comps have as well.) But you're correct there is always compromise. Hoosiers really shouldn't be on the street so one has the pain of getting a set of track wheels to the track and doing the change there. It was great driving to the track on the RE71-R tires and not having to do the swap after arrival!

And yes it's really great to see others tracking their 3's. They're lots of fun and capable! I have done three events in the 3. Each time the software improvements have made for a better experience. (The first time out track mode didn't exist... WOW did that help. The second time out was Track mode. The third time out had a higher top speed (aka also able to drive the car harder for longer without power decrease.)) Vast improvements.

 

[brianman]

P.S. I've done so many track weekends I don't know how many it's been. I stopped counting around 100 days on track. Haha, that makes it sound like I have a problem.

Solution, not problem.

 

[brianman]

This might be a good thread for discussing. Any thoughts on this wear pattern? This is from 2 track days in 70-85F weather. P OEM wheels and tires.

 

[Daniel in SD]

This might be a good thread for discussing. Any thoughts on this wear pattern? This is from 2 track days in 70-85F weather. P OEM wheels and tires.

View attachment 415950 View attachment 415951 View attachment 415952

Way better than other pictures I've seen. Good job not overdriving the car!
As many have discovered the PS4S are amazing street tires but not really suited for track driving. Lots of people running RE71Rs. My recommendation would be Hankook R-S4 if you want a tire that has good grip and durability but I haven't seen anyone here running them.

 

[brianman]

Good job not overdriving the car!

Always happy to get a compliment, but can you elaborate on how you draw that conclusion? Thanks.

 

[jyalpert]

street tires have really improved though I assume R-comps have as well.

Kinda. I believe the main advantage of harder R-comp (NT01, RR, RA1) vs. a super 200tw tire at this point is mostly wear and consistency. Whatever black magic Bridgestone and BFG had to do to get the RE71R and Rival S to be 200tw apparently means the tires wear more quickly per my understanding, although grip is similar between them.

This might be a good thread for discussing. Any thoughts on this wear pattern? This is from 2 track days in 70-85F weather. P OEM wheels and tires.

View attachment 415950 View attachment 415951 View attachment 415952

Interesting. The shoulder looks way better than some other pictures, but the center tread blocks are clearly worn toward the outside - I guess a sign of too little negative camber again, perhaps?

Also is that tire on backward in the second picture?

 

[Daniel in SD]

Always happy to get a compliment, but can you elaborate on how you draw that conclusion? Thanks.

Because a lot of the other PS4S pictures I've seen here are completely destroyed and I've seen people destroy them at autocross in other cars too.

 

[brianman]

Interesting. The shoulder looks way better than some other pictures, but the center tread blocks are clearly worn toward the outside - I guess a sign of too little negative camber again, perhaps?

The camber is stock. Note that the first day was 37psi cold. The second day was 39psi cold for the morning (1 warmup session, 1 hot session), and then 37psi (ish) for the lone (hot) afternoon session (before I was too low on juice again).

I was guessing that the "edging" 2nd and 3rd "rib" (?) of the middle of the tire was an indicator of the 39psi runs vs. the 37psi runs. Still wondering if that guess was off the mark or not.

Also is that tire on backward in the second picture?

Note that I know of.