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Blind Faith Price Targets

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The Strong Buy and Buy cut points make sense to me and the data you have compiled suggest good results so far with that approach.

Personally I would not use the model as guidance for "sell" levels and instead would think of those levels as something like a "cautionary" signal for short-term moves. I have explained my thinking before (posts 164, 166, 168, 223, 225) but long story short even a 27% discount rate, which is a "Strong Sell," is extremely high and would be difficult to match with other investments.

I continue to believe that if Tesla executes on the Model 3 ramp (including gross margin targets) and barring macro hiccups or other surprises we are likely to see an inflection point between now and 2020 (as we had in 2013) where the SP pops and the implied discount rate to the LTPT drops from ~30% to a more "reasonable" number -- perhaps something closer to 20%. I'd hate to sell and miss out on the fun.:)
I agree that "sell" is too strong language. My own practice is never to sell for price reasons. (I've only sold in the past for non-investment reasons like raising cash to buy Model S.) I think perhaps that I will omit action labels altogether because everyone's strategy is different, and it is not for me to say.

Also note that in the backtest based on prices 1 to 3 years ago, the average annual return was a mere 16.4%. That is good, but I actually think future return is much better than that. In fact, if you really believe the LTPT of $5455, then your prospective expectation is about 30% annual return. Thus, our backtest, which omitted intentionally the rise from $30s to mid-$100, may well understate future performance. So the average decline of a few percent that we saw with discount under 29% need not mean an expected loss in a stretch of years where average return is nearer to 30%.

So any backtest should be taken with a grain of salt. The value of it is to challenge the basic assumptions we been making that buying when discount is high is better than buying with low. History seems to confirm this basic idea. At least know it is not pattenly stupid had we been unable to demonstrate any correlation between implied discount and returns over a reasonable timeframe.

So at some point in time we may see discount fall to say 26%, and that need not be the best time to sell. The context makes a big difference. If Tesla is posting solid earning at that time, the market may well be justifying the price more on near-term free cash flow than on some long term vision that compels patience with years of cash burn. This also illustrates a key difference between Blind Faith and a DCF valuation model. Blind Faith essentially says to ignore near-term cash flow and earning and focus on some point well in the future when in the revenue and earnings will be massive and support a huge valuation. That is how it is blind faith. A DCF approach, however, insists on being able to model cash flow out from now to eternity and to know what sort of discount the market ought to put on one's imagined cash flow model. Thus, the DCF analyst is very focused on earnings over the next few years and may ignore altogether potential revenue streams that cannot be delineated at this time. For example, no one to my knowledge is modeling how much revenue the sale of food and beverages at Supercharger restaurant will bring in over the next ten years. It would seem utterly silly to do so at this time. But in the Blind Faith approach, we simply trust that Musk and management will be able to keep growing revenue 50% per years for the next ten years or so. If that means selling veggie burgers while customers change, so be it. It could also mean solar roofs or massive battery farms. It matters little exactly what business lines will generate future cash flow, so long as management keeps pace with an appetite for 50% annual growth. If this appetite changes or proves unsustainable, then the LTPT gets adjusted downward and we continue on.

So Blind Faith is agnostic about which business lines will deliver 50% growth. FWIW, revenue was $7B in 2016. So 50% growth is merely a $10.5B target for 2017. I think 2017 will actually come in around $11.8B, even without much help from Model 3 sales. Is $18B too much revenue to hope for in 2018? How about $27B in 2019 or $40.5B in 2020? At what point in time does Tesla run out of innovative growth opportunities? If the opportunities are there, the rest is just execution and macro events.

So particularly where we see Tesla's fundamentals come to support valuation above simple Blind Faith, we could see implied discounts decline without much risk of an annual loss. So sell signals need to be about a much more fundamental shift in business outlook than just a low discount rate.
 
Ok, folks we've been stewing on new LTPTs. I'd like to nail down just three to keep our eyes on. Here is what I propose. All are based on share price as of 1/20/2028.

Nominal $3250/share
Sport $5250/share
Insane $7250/share

Nominal $3250
Elon just barely hit $650B market cap in time and with 200M shares outstanding. His compensation plan would raise the number of shares from 169M to 190.4M. The 200M share level then allows for quite most dilution of an additional 10M over 10 years. Value of Elon's share of Tesla is about $200B

Sport $5250
Elon challenges himself to take Tesla to $1T market cap and only raises shares to 190.5M. This substantially increase the value of all his shares (35% of the company) to some $350B.

Insane $7250
Elon pushes the limits of hypergrowth. On a base of $12B in 2017, revenue continues to grow 50%/y through 2027, wherein with 10% profit margin and 20X PE Tesla is worth some $1385B on just 190.5M shares for a share price of $7250. Elon's 35% share of Tesla is worth some $485B.

So Musk has enormous latitude to make himself one of the wealthiest persons on the planet. Just hitting the nominal goals of his compensation plan is really at the low end of what is possible, $200B to $500B. I believe this compensation plan is to keep Elon's entrepreurial ambitions well within Tesla. If he wants to pursue some other business like the Boring Company or Supercharger restaurants, we'd like him to pursue it in a way that builds Tesla market cap. So the award seems to be structured in a way that he'd be strongly inclined to graft this into Tesla rather than forming other public companies.

So the notion of Blind Faith seems to be turning on a basic belief in Elon as a multi-entrepreneur. The Tesla shareholder becomes yoked to what he can accomplish. Tesla becomes his entrepreneurial vehicle. So the question is how does Elon want to drive: Nominal, Sport, or Insane?

Do we even need to ask?
 
So let's look at these new LTPTs for 1/20/2028. We have three flavors of cool-aid for the Faithful: Nominal, Sport and Insane.

Nominal $3250
Code:
Percentile    Implied Discount    2018-01-29    2018-02-28    2018-12-31    2019-02-28    2019-12-31    2020-12-31    2022-12-31    2025-12-31
30.5%    28.5%    $343      $350      $432      $450      $555      $713      $1,177      $2,496
  0%    33.0%     $252      $258      $327      $343      $435      $579      $1,023      $2,407
 10%    30.4%     $301      $307      $384      $400      $500      $652      $1,109      $2,457
 30%    28.5%     $342      $350      $431      $449      $554      $712      $1,176      $2,495
 50%    26.8%     $385      $392      $479      $497      $607      $770      $1,239      $2,529
 70%    25.2%     $432      $441      $532      $551      $666      $834      $1,307      $2,565
 90%    23.6%     $484      $493      $589      $609      $728      $900      $1,375      $2,599
100%    21.7%     $558      $567      $668      $690      $813      $990      $1,466      $2,642

Sport $5250
Code:
Percentile    Implied Discount    2018-01-29    2018-02-28    2018-12-31    2019-02-28    2019-12-31    2020-12-31    2022-12-31    2025-12-31
20.0%    35.5%    $343      $352      $454      $477       $615       $834      $1,531      $3,811
  0%    39.4%     $267      $274      $362      $382       $504       $703      $1,366      $3,699
 10%    36.6%     $319      $327      $425      $447       $581       $794      $1,481      $3,778
 30%    34.8%     $360      $369      $474      $498       $639       $862      $1,565      $3,833
 50%    32.7%     $413      $423      $536      $562       $712       $946      $1,665      $3,895
 70%    30.4%     $484      $495      $618      $645       $806     $1,052      $1,788      $3,968
 90%    28.5%     $554      $565      $697      $726       $896     $1,151      $1,900      $4,031
100%    26.5%     $638      $650      $792      $822     $1,001     $1,267      $2,026      $4,099

Insane $7250
Code:
Percentile    Implied Discount    2018-01-29    2018-02-28    2018-12-31    2019-02-28    2019-12-31    2020-12-31    2022-12-31    2025-12-31
16.6%   40.5%     $343      $353      $469      $495       $659       $926      $1,827      $5,067
  0%    43.9%     $277      $285      $387      $410       $556       $801      $1,658      $4,940
 10%    41.2%     $328      $337      $450      $476       $635       $898      $1,789      $5,039
 30%    39.0%     $377      $387      $511      $538       $710       $987      $1,907      $5,123
 50%    36.9%     $433      $444      $578      $608       $791     $1,084      $2,030      $5,207
 70%    34.0%     $523      $536      $685      $718       $918     $1,231      $2,211      $5,324
 90%    31.8%     $607      $621      $783      $818     $1,032     $1,361      $2,364      $5,418
100%    29.7%     $704      $719      $894      $932     $1,159     $1,503      $2,527      $5,513
 
The following backtests may help you calibrate your strategy.
Code:
Nominal           
Discount    Count    AverageAnnualReturn    StdDevAnnualReturn
21%    15    -15%    5%
22%    42    -10%    7%
23%    89    1%    13%
24%    140    -2%    15%
25%    92    -1%    17%
26%    99    5%    17%
27%    61    4%    17%
28%    53    39%    17%
29%    65    49%    13%
30%    45    64%    17%
31%    40    68%    10%
32%    30    69%    8%
Grand Total    771    16%    31%
            
Sport           
Discount    Count    AverageAnnualReturn    StdDevAnnualReturn
26%    18    -16%    5%
27%    50    -6%    10%
28%    98    2%    13%
29%    115    0%    16%
30%    81    -6%    16%
31%    66    6%    17%
32%    80    1%    17%
33%    35    8%    16%
34%    55    40%    17%
35%    56    50%    12%
36%    38    64%    17%
37%    40    68%    13%
38%    35    67%    7%
39%    4    69%    1%
Grand Total    771    16%    31%
            
Insane           
Discount    Count    AverageAnnualReturn    StdDevAnnualReturn
29%    11    -18%    4%
30%    38    -11%    7%
31%    67    1%    11%
32%    99    6%    15%
33%    96    -4%    16%
34%    83    -5%    17%
35%    50    6%    15%
36%    68    1%    17%
37%    31    8%    14%
38%    38    36%    15%
39%    69    51%    12%
40%    23    61%    19%
41%    51    67%    15%
42%    27    67%    9%
43%    20    68%    6%
Grand Total    771    16%    31%

As you can see, the three targets all give you the same directional guidance, but only differ by critical level of discount. The return was strong above 28% discount for Nominal, 34% discount for Sport and 38% discount for Insane. About 30% of the days in this sample were above these thresholds regardless of LTPT.
 
Nominal $3250
Elon just barely hit $650B market cap in time and with 200M shares outstanding. His compensation plan would raise the number of shares from 169M to 190.4M. The 200M share level then allows for quite most dilution of an additional 10M over 10 years. Value of Elon's share of Tesla is about $200B

Curious how you're reaching just 10M over 10 years?
 
I think 30M, or 220M overall shares would be more appropriate number considering employee stock incentives, cap raises, etc.
Yeah, that gets to $2955/share. We have debated that sort of thing quite alot over the years in this thread. This far from the LTPT is does not make a whole lot of difference from the more aggressive $3250. There seems to be an appetite not to load down these targets based on Elon's new compensation plan with strong dilution assumptions. So here I'm just keeping it close to what is in the plan.

Naturally Musk will try to achieve the final goal as early as possible. He has until 1/20/2028 to cross the $650B market cap line. If we get there in early 2027, then by 1/20/2028 we safely get to $715B market caps, which on 220M shares is $3250/share. Presumably Musk is motivated to minimize dilution, but he needs to pour on the growth quickly enough that The market has time to respond with the target valuation. How the market values Tesla is not fully within Musk's control, so the shareholder value must be created well in advance. If the market fails to appreciate the cash flow being generated in 2027, a stock repurchase plan could firm up the market valuation.The point is there are multiple paths in terms of market cap and shares outstanding that get to the Nominal price target. So early capital raises can assure the growth needed for the $650B valuation, and late stock repurchase, if necessary, can assure that the market appropriately prices that value.

So the basic question for those who model cash flow is when can we safely see an end to cash burn and a switch to free cash flow. Once we switch to FCF, prior dilution can be reined in. The argument that I have had on this point with @ValueAnalyst is that I think Tesla will have very high growth opportunities to pursue for quite some time. So if Musk sees a way to keep growing revenue over 50%/year all the way out to 2028, Musk will be inclined to reinvest cash flow and keep FCF pretty lean. On the other hand if Tesla has more cash flow than it knows what to do with, then stock repurchase would shore up the share price and grant Musk a larger interest in the company. I suspect this comes down to what sort of growth rate will be sustainable out past 2024 going into 2028. I also suspect that this is not knowable right now, but it largely depends on how quickly EV and stationary storage markets get built up by 2024. If EV penetration exceeds 50% of new vehicles in 2024, then the growth rate for the entire market for big batteries could be slowing down. So this could be a scenario where stock repurchase plans make the most sense. My own modeling of EV auto market has penetration reaching 44% in 2027 and 54% in 2028 which allows for 32% and 28% growth in EV sales in these two years respectively. So in this scenario, there is still opportunity for Tesla to be taking substantial market share away from ICE and PHEVs, but it will have to be moving faster than most other BEV makers to make 50% growth. Of course there are other markets to disrupt as well.
 
Yeah, that gets to $2955/share. We have debated that sort of thing quite alot over the years in this thread. This far from the LTPT is does not make a whole lot of difference from the more aggressive $3250. There seems to be an appetite not to load down these targets based on Elon's new compensation plan with strong dilution assumptions. So here I'm just keeping it close to what is in the plan.

Naturally Musk will try to achieve the final goal as early as possible. He has until 1/20/2028 to cross the $650B market cap line. If we get there in early 2027, then by 1/20/2028 we safely get to $715B market caps, which on 220M shares is $3250/share. Presumably Musk is motivated to minimize dilution, but he needs to pour on the growth quickly enough that The market has time to respond with the target valuation. How the market values Tesla is not fully within Musk's control, so the shareholder value must be created well in advance. If the market fails to appreciate the cash flow being generated in 2027, a stock repurchase plan could firm up the market valuation.The point is there are multiple paths in terms of market cap and shares outstanding that get to the Nominal price target. So early capital raises can assure the growth needed for the $650B valuation, and late stock repurchase, if necessary, can assure that the market appropriately prices that value.

So the basic question for those who model cash flow is when can we safely see an end to cash burn and a switch to free cash flow. Once we switch to FCF, prior dilution can be reined in. The argument that I have had on this point with @ValueAnalyst is that I think Tesla will have very high growth opportunities to pursue for quite some time. So if Musk sees a way to keep growing revenue over 50%/year all the way out to 2028, Musk will be inclined to reinvest cash flow and keep FCF pretty lean. On the other hand if Tesla has more cash flow than it knows what to do with, then stock repurchase would shore up the share price and grant Musk a larger interest in the company. I suspect this comes down to what sort of growth rate will be sustainable out past 2024 going into 2028. I also suspect that this is not knowable right now, but it largely depends on how quickly EV and stationary storage markets get built up by 2024. If EV penetration exceeds 50% of new vehicles in 2024, then the growth rate for the entire market for big batteries could be slowing down. So this could be a scenario where stock repurchase plans make the most sense. My own modeling of EV auto market has penetration reaching 44% in 2027 and 54% in 2028 which allows for 32% and 28% growth in EV sales in these two years respectively. So in this scenario, there is still opportunity for Tesla to be taking substantial market share away from ICE and PHEVs, but it will have to be moving faster than most other BEV makers to make 50% growth. Of course there are other markets to disrupt as well.

I never argued Tesla will not "have very high growth opportunities to pursue for quite some time." Tesla will be able to finance these opportunities via internal cash flow and non-dilutive debt capital.

On an overarching note, please stop putting words in my mouth. For whatever reason, you consistently misstate what I say. This is now beyond annoying and a waste of my time. Either state what you have to say or ask. Do not assume and do not put words in my mouth.
 
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I never argued Tesla will not "have very high growth opportunities to pursue for quite some time." Tesla will be able to finance these opportunities via internal cash flow and non-dilutive debt capital.

On an overarching note, please stop putting words in my mouth. For whatever reason, you consistently misstate what I say. This is now beyond annoying and a waste of my time. Either state what you have to say or ask. Do not assume and do not put words in my mouth.
My sincere apologies. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth. I was simply making reference to you as one who has argued for very low dilution. In the present context, the issue comes up again.

I would would like to hear your perspective on the Elon's new compensation package and how that may bear upon long term price targets. If you would rather not participate in this thread, I quite understand. All the best.
 
My sincere apologies. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth. I was simply making reference to you as one who has argued for very low dilution. In the present context, the issue comes up again.

I would would like to hear your perspective on the Elon's new compensation package and how that may bear upon long term price targets. If you would rather not participate in this thread, I quite understand. All the best.

Horrible timing to be asking for tens of billions of dollars.

1. When will Model 3 reach 5,000/week? 10,000/week?
2. When will FSD separate from EAP? When is C2C demo?
 
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Horrible timing to be asking for tens of billions of dollars.

1. When will Model 3 reach 5,000/week? 10,000/week?
2. When will FSD separate from EAP? When is C2C demo?
Well, he did just sell 20,000 flamethrowers. Nothing like a little distraction when things aren't going according to schedule at Tesla. It seems that each of those goals is likely around 6 to 8 months behind the schedule from 2017.
 
Faithful Blind, the stock price at $297 has fallen below the 10% sentiment mark at $301 for the Nominal Target. This is a rare opportunity to accumulate on the cheap. No telling how low it may go in the coming days. But as confidence returns to the stock and market in general, the upside looks pretty good.

Not advice, just pointing out where the price is in relation to BFPT.
 
Faithful Blind, the stock price at $297 has fallen below the 10% sentiment mark at $301 for the Nominal Target. This is a rare opportunity to accumulate on the cheap. No telling how low it may go in the coming days. But as confidence returns to the stock and market in general, the upside looks pretty good.

Not advice, just pointing out where the price is in relation to BFPT.
Thanks for the heads-up!
 
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I know this is the BFPT thread, but just wondering how, or can you factor in rising interest rates? Would this affect the implied discount? Just curious and trying to learn... Thanks!
I suppose one could compare the implied discounts to, say, the ten year Treasury yield, but the volatility of implied discounts is so high I doubt that Treasury yields would have much explanatory power. A stock that is reliably valued with a DCF model would likely show more response to the yield curve.
 
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I suppose one could compare the implied discounts to, say, the ten year Treasury yield, but the volatility of implied discounts is so high I doubt that Treasury yields would have much explanatory power. A stock that is reliably valued with a DCF model would likely show more response to the yield curve.

Thanks! Makes sense!
 
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Wow, the price has climbed enough today that it is out of the Blind Faith Blessed Range of $295-$338. (Just made that up, it is 10% to 30% current BFPT, which historically has generated superior one-year returns.) Over the next 30 days that blessed range will rise to $301-$344, and in 12 months to $376-$425. I like to accumulate in the middle of the blessed range, but that is not advice, just my personal preference.

I don't feel like doing a full update on this. Just want to keep focus on the Blessed Price Range using the Nominal LTPT.

A few weeks ago (Feb 8) I bought at $315, which was in the middle of the blessed range at the time ($293-$335). It dropped down as low as $295 the next day, but has since recovered. There was a very limited window to buy at a lower price. So I'm glad I did not wait for lower prices. I easily could have missed this sweet 10% return so far.
 
I don't feel like doing a full update on this. Just want to keep focus on the Blessed Price Range using the Nominal LTPT.

A few weeks ago (Feb 8) I bought at $315, which was in the middle of the blessed range at the time ($293-$335). It dropped down as low as $295 the next day, but has since recovered. There was a very limited window to buy at a lower price. So I'm glad I did not wait for lower prices. I easily could have missed this sweet 10% return so far.
Couple of weeks ago I leveraged again in $320-$300, first time after long time.
I feel BFP theory helped me through the fear I've accumulated in '15-'16 :)
I got rid of the half of the leverage in the $350-$360 range.

So this is just to say thanks, BFP is a very interesting way of looking at Tesla SP, and from my point of view, as good, or likely better than any other research out there. Thanks is for the theory and discussion, not the small trading gains I eked out :)
 
Couple of weeks ago I leveraged again in $320-$300, first time after long time.
I feel BFP theory helped me through the fear I've accumulated in '15-'16 :)
I got rid of the half of the leverage in the $350-$360 range.

So this is just to say thanks, BFP is a very interesting way of looking at Tesla SP, and from my point of view, as good, or likely better than any other research out there. Thanks is for the theory and discussion, not the small trading gains I eked out :)
Thanks so much. The whole idea was to stabilize focus on the long-term so you can ride out the ups and downs better. Just staying the course through all the craziness is an accomplishment.